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Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

theguardian.com

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Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#131

Post by FranzFerdiNaN »

credit_guy wrote: post #116
erulabs wrote: post #85

I've chatted with a few folks who have spent their entire lives working in climate science while being employed by the oil industry. They're some of the most moderate, intelligent, considered people I've ever talked to. And most people hear "a climate scientist who works for an oil company" and assumes they're the worst sort - a profiteer or a liar or a complicit drone. They're not leadership - they don't get to deci…

> Now... the leadership folks who commissioned these predictions and then ignored them... That's another matter! Ok, you made me curious. What were they supposed to do? Stop drilling and selling oil? Ask the government for increased taxes to take care of externalities? Dismantle the corporation? Just resign and go find a job in a different industry?

Yes what were they supposed to do with the information that their business would end up cooking the earth??? If only I could think of something, but i can’t. So let’s just fund denialism if it all instead.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#132

Post by sangnoir »

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #123
credit_guy wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now... the leadership folks who commissioned these predictions and then ignored them... That's another matter! Ok, you made me curious. What were they supposed to do? Stop drilling and selling oil? Ask the government for increased taxes to take care of externalities? Dismantle the corporation? Just resign and go find a job in a different industry?

You know how when school budgets are cut, underpaid teachers spend money out of their own pockets to ensure students get what is needed? Or nurses stay far past their shifts to ensure critical patients get the care they need? Unethical people don't realize that there are countless ethical people who make the right choices every day. The answer to your questions, is yes to all of them.

That's not exactly apples to apples, but you got me thinking about the leaders that cut school budgets and under-staff hospitals (while getting bonuses, no doubt). When it comes to ethics, it appears most organizations are bottom-heavy.

Isn't it weird how budget cuts and under-staffing[1] have nebulous attribution, or are seen as an unstoppable force of nature in whose face the embattled, heroic, under-resourced teachers and nurses must make their stand

1. Read 'profit-taking'

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#133

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

credit_guy wrote: post #116
erulabs wrote: post #85

I've chatted with a few folks who have spent their entire lives working in climate science while being employed by the oil industry. They're some of the most moderate, intelligent, considered people I've ever talked to. And most people hear "a climate scientist who works for an oil company" and assumes they're the worst sort - a profiteer or a liar or a complicit drone. They're not leadership - they don't get to deci…

> Now... the leadership folks who commissioned these predictions and then ignored them... That's another matter! Ok, you made me curious. What were they supposed to do? Stop drilling and selling oil? Ask the government for increased taxes to take care of externalities? Dismantle the corporation? Just resign and go find a job in a different industry?

If you look at your kids every day and their future. Yes. I guess. Or reinvest, to pump the funds into future tech to replace the disaster.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#134

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

If the species was a human, it would by now be institutionalized for self-harm while delusional, but well, there is no warden to put us into a zoo and govern affairs, so there is that.

Instead we basically have a species, that is the equivalent of a homeless drug addict on the tenderloin, soiling its own future. A good start would be to honestly communicate this as the starting point of every debate. Then evaluate what can be done, without retardations setting in, in the range of the limitations.

How much of the day can be used, without withdrawl syndroms.

How can delusions be crafted into something that moves the species forward towards a reasonable goal?

What has to go, even if it hurts temporary and the "other hand" wants to prevent it?

As in, is it okay, to call for a first strike policy on someone who wants to assasinate you in 3 generations? Can terrarism against terrorism be legit as self-defense? https://www.amazon.de/How-Blow-Up-Pipeline-Learning/dp/18397...

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#135

Post by maeil »

agentultra wrote: post #41

The address Carl Sagan made in 1985 is well worth watching for those who remember those times and especially for those who weren't alive back then [0] People knew about this before you were born and decided their best interests were more important and they acted in wilful disregard for your life and the lives of everyone on this planet. They weren't ignorant. No facts were hidden from them that they could be forgiven…

And yet, thanks to the decisive victory of the lawful end of the morality axis, the only actions the public supports are those working within the system. There is no amount of (theoretical or not) fuck-up that warrants putting the fear of god into the heart of someone. All people involved have knowingly created (and themselves been) an existential threat and the most extreme action people find morally acceptable is writing some mildly mannered stuff on a cardboard... but only when and where the government approves.

Otherwise they wouldn't have dared. If the public supported measures against them that are proportional to their threat, they would never have done these things.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#136

Post by maeil »

mschuster91 wrote: post #14

Surprise, surprise. And yet, Big Oil continued to launch campaigns designed to deflect responsibility from companies and governments away to individual consumers, like BP's "carbon footprint" [1]. When will those responsible be held accountable for helping to advance the destruction of climate and the immense loss of life and property that climate change has brought? How can we explain to our children and grandchildr…

They never will be held responsible because the public does not support doing so. It only supports working inside the existing system of law, which has not and will not hold them accountable. Anything outside of this system is deemed morally unacceptable.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#137

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

credit_guy wrote: post #116
erulabs wrote: post #85

I've chatted with a few folks who have spent their entire lives working in climate science while being employed by the oil industry. They're some of the most moderate, intelligent, considered people I've ever talked to. And most people hear "a climate scientist who works for an oil company" and assumes they're the worst sort - a profiteer or a liar or a complicit drone. They're not leadership - they don't get to deci…

> Now... the leadership folks who commissioned these predictions and then ignored them... That's another matter! Ok, you made me curious. What were they supposed to do? Stop drilling and selling oil? Ask the government for increased taxes to take care of externalities? Dismantle the corporation? Just resign and go find a job in a different industry?

Not go out and publicly try to discredit work they know to be true? Start shifting their companies aggressively towards energy sources which will not kill us all decades earlier by using their insane benefits to invest in R&D? Anything which is not akin to sacrificing millions and handing a terrible situation to the next generation to make a quick buck? Have a soul?

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#138

Post by WastingMyTime89 »

smackeyacky wrote: post #128
fwungy wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.aei.org/economics/environmental-energy-economics... I never said don't do anything. What I believe is that we need to balance carbon elimination w/ carbon mitigation and not put all our eggs in the elimination basket. We've got one chance to do this right.

I suspect we had one chance to do it right, but the organised and widespread suppression and misinformation campaigns of these companies basically made that impossible. Now we're faced with a range of unpalatable choices and a population fiercely divided about what to do. Great job oil companies.

This is a common but erroneous thinking. Man influenced climate change is an ongoing process.

It would have been great to start doing something thirty years ago to avoid some of what’s happening now but we didn’t. Now we still have to do something or it will get even worse.

This is not a throw your arms in the air and wait for the end while screaming situation.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#139

Post by smackeyacky »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #138
smackeyacky wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect we had one chance to do it right, but the organised and widespread suppression and misinformation campaigns of these companies basically made that impossible. Now we're faced with a range of unpalatable choices and a population fiercely divided about what to do. Great job oil companies.

This is a common but erroneous thinking. Man influenced climate change is an ongoing process. It would have been great to start doing something thirty years ago to avoid some of what’s happening now but we didn’t. Now we still have to do something or it will get even worse. This is not a throw your arms in the air and wait for the end while screaming situation.

Not advocating throwing my hands in the air, but the deliberate delay has narrowed our choices at a rate faster than technology has come to the rescue.

There is going to be a lot of complaints as choices keep getting removed and decisions forced upon us by the escalating crisis. If you are a freedom loving libertarian, you are not going to enjoy the next few decades. Which would be deliciously ironic if it wasn't such a monstrous tragedy.

Re: Exxon made ‘breathtakingly’ accurate climate predictions in 1970s and 80s

#140

Post by winReInstall »

haxiomic wrote: post #32
whatever1 wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what was the expectation. For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? We have legislative bodies that we literally elect and pay to do this job. Let’s stop the hypocrisy and look ourselves in the mirror.

> For Big Oil to start campaigning against their own product? Yes! Surely we all have a responsibility to our own _species_. If you're making something that you discover harms the species then you should change course. This company would have massive head start and could own the inevitable future of green energy if they took action then Laws are like the immune system for humanity, this is exactly the scenario it mak…

Or at least to your own familys. My guess is, that if you made it a science to search for likely unaffected regions of the planet by climate change, you would find a lot of oil-executive real estate there.

Interesting idea, would be to ban them from owing properties or living in those places. If you nail the escape hatch shut, survival instincts might even set in.

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