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Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

kristall.random-projects.net

191–198 of 198 posts

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#191
post #172

I think it would be more flexible to instead of Geminispace and developing a browser without JS support to enforce “smolnet” would simply be to define a HTMLite standard with a subset where e.g. the entire script tag or img tag is not part of it. Then you have HTMLite verifiers (probably the simplest thing to verify!) to ensure a site is compliant and voila you need no Gemini protocol, only simple HTTP/1 and you can…

from the Gemini FAQ[1], 2.5:

> The problem is that deciding upon a strictly limited subset of HTTP and HTML, slapping a label on it and calling it a day would do almost nothing to create a clearly demarcated space where people can go to consume only that kind of content in only that kind of way. It's impossible to know in advance whether what's on the other side of a https:// URL will be within the subset or outside it. It's very tedious to verify that a website claiming to use only the subset actually does, as many of the features we want to avoid are invisible (but not harmless!) to the user. It's difficult or even impossible to deactivate support for all the unwanted features in mainstream browsers, so if somebody breaks the rules you'll pay the consequences. Writing a dumbed down web browser which gracefully ignores all the unwanted features is much harder than writing a Gemini client from scratch. Even if you did it, you'd have a very difficult time discovering the minuscule fraction of websites it could render.

> Alternative, simple-by-design protocols like Gopher and Gemini create alternative, simple-by-design spaces with obvious boundaries and hard restrictions. You know for sure when you enter Geminispace, and you can know for sure and in advance when following a certain link will cause you leave it. While you're there, you know for sure and in advance that everybody else there is playing by the same rules. You can relax and get on with your browsing, and follow links to sites you've never heard of before, which just popped up yesterday, and be confident that they won't try to track you or serve you garbage because they can't. You can do all this with a client you wrote yourself, so you know you can trust it. It's a very different, much more liberating and much more empowering experience than trying to carve out a tiny, invisible sub-sub-sub-sub-space of the web.

[1] https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#193
post #168
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I avoided direct mention of Gemini for a reason: I am not a fan. Got nothing against the idea. It is about the implementation. I care about retro hardware and minimizing requirements; they don't. Spartan is cool.

This has always been my real issue with Gemini. Gopher is useful on all computers I own and actually makes retro computers more useful with the services available on it. Gemini’s TLS requirement prevents access by a of machines that could benefit from it.

Gopher rocks on DOS[0].

0. https://gopherus.sourceforge.net/

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think of Gemini less like a competitor to the web but more as ham radio. Radio amateurs can communicate through the internet with their phones and it would be faster, simpler and easier. But radio gives them both the nostalgia feeling and a niche community to belong. Gemini is kinda like that.

I don't use Pico-8, and I find its limitations frustrating; I am never going to make a game in Pico-8. But I do use stuff like Jummbox when I compose music, for basically the same exact reasons other devs use Pico-8 for games, and I love Jummbox's limitations for music composition. Limitations are a way of fostering community (ham radio enthusiasts all kind of get to know local operators, Jummbox makes sharing song s…

Thanks for mentioning Jummbox, I was just looking for something like that! Though I'll start with Beepbox since it looks even more constrained.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're "selling" a TV as a TV when the world has switched to using full-blown mind-control shopping malls as TVs.

IMO the better comparison is selling a 9” black and white TV with only an OTA antenna as input as a TV in 2023: technically correct, wildly out of whack with customer expectations.

I think they point here is, they make it obvious that they don't want to support JS,CSS, etc... The support for other protocols is the same thing - neither a finger page, nor a gophermap need css or JS.. So if you want to use it with the part of the web that requires those, this is not for you. It's a tool for those who use a different part of the web. Those who only need a TV and not a circus. One might see a commentary about the state of the web in the project, but not necessarily - it's just a tool for those who have a need for it, e.g to browse the intranet for a research institute.. if this browser is all you need for that you greatly reduce the attack vectors on your institute among other benefits.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#196
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use uBlock origin with JavaScript disabled by default. You can set a shortcut to enable JavaScript (“Relax blocking mode”, cmd-J for me. I don’t remember whether that was the default.) You can persist enabled JavaScript for the current domain for the future. I find that with JavaScript enabled on some 20 websites, the rest of the web works pretty well with the occasional cmd-J in case it doesn’t. On mobile I haven’…

There are annoyances. 1) many sites can't even be bothered with a basic noscript or it was the default message from some “starter” app rather than something meaningful/descriptive 2) basic sites like blogs are putting their image loading behind JavaScript for no reason (unless they or WordPress plugin developers aren't aware of ) 3) too many folks are relying on third-party CDNs and client-side parsing for something…

Annoyances developers should take into account, not something users should be dissuaded from. Do block by default.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#197
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that definition, many screen reader browsers would not be considered browsers yet they enable the user to surf the web none the less.

As stated by robin_reala, that is not how screen readers work. At minimum they still definitely parse CSS as many accessibility enhancements were only introduced by CSS with no equivalent (or even a workaround) using pure HTML, and in practice will also require to have JavaScript support because when a website decides to be an obnoxious GPU-hungry Flutter application even CSS wouldn't cut it.

This is not really correct, many screen readers only support a very small subset of CSS which doesn't really match the parent's comment, that browsers must support HTML and CSS.

Re: Kristall – a browser without support for CSS/JS/WASM or graphical websites

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As stated by robin_reala, that is not how screen readers work. At minimum they still definitely parse CSS as many accessibility enhancements were only introduced by CSS with no equivalent (or even a workaround) using pure HTML, and in practice will also require to have JavaScript support because when a website decides to be an obnoxious GPU-hungry Flutter application even CSS wouldn't cut it.

This is not really correct, many screen readers only support a very small subset of CSS which doesn't really match the parent's comment, that browsers must support HTML and CSS.

> This is not really correct, many screen readers only support a very small subset of CSS which doesn't really match the parent's comment, that browsers must support HTML and CSS.

This doesn't match with current versions of accessibility software which either connects to a browser or simply bundles an embedded version of Chromium. The ship has sailed on no-JS websites sadly, and not supporting (substantially) all of CSS modules would simply render 90% of websites inaccessible.

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