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The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

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Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#51

Post by InCityDreams »

jonatron wrote: post #26
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #4

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

I like negative prices, I got paid to heat my hot water tank and have underfloor heating on last night for 1.5 hours.

Paid for 1.5 hours underfloor, or just on for 1.5?

*also where you are would be interesting. There's a big difference say between Scotland and Croatia.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#52

Post by mjw1007 »

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #48
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #4

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

> I'd rather waste wind than waste money. How is paying wind farms hundreds of millions of pounds to turn off wind generation not wasting money?

In a sense: because all it does is move money from one place to another.

That's very different to wasting money in a way that actually uses up physical resources or people's time.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#53

Post by sbradford26 »

jamil7 wrote: post #50
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

I always thought gas was quite quick to start which made it a good complement to renewables.

It depends on the type of natural gas plant. Some of them are designed for efficiency which takes longer to spin up and down while some are peaker plants which can spin up in a matter of seconds/minutes.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#54

Post by fundatus »

jamil7 wrote: post #50
redleader55 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a nationwide power grid is very complex. Some energy sources can be started and stopped instantly, but are limited - water. Others are plentiful, but unpredictable - wind. Others are predictable, but take a long time to start and stop - gas, coal(several hours), nuclear(1 day to start, fast to stop, but very expensive). A balanced grid will need all of them, will need them in quantities which can cover faul…

I always thought gas was quite quick to start which made it a good complement to renewables.

Yep, 15 minutes to full load is not uncommon with gas plants.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#56

Post by dclowd9901 »

I have a tangential question (and I truly do not mean to be provocative with it, just curious): Has anyone put any effort into figuring out how much impact we have on air movement in general with windmills? Like, is there a scenario where we could negatively impact the environment by capturing "too much wind"?

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#57

Post by ta545 »

teruakohatu wrote: post #30
pleb_nz wrote: post #6

So does NZ.... Man this place blows especially in Canterbury where I am. Nearly every single day it's windy enough that it annoys and sometimes ruins being outside. I must say 3 to 4 times a week 'f** this windy hole' to someone. Sitting in the roaring 40s trade winds why doesnt NZ have more wind generation is baffling.

The reason that all or almost all of the power you use is renewable. Adding more renewable generation in the South Island won't help the coal generation in the North Island. Right now, investment in infrastructure needs to be made to move power from Manapōuri to the North Island. As to why we are not replacing the 1.8m tons of coal we import from as far away as Indonesia with wind or solar in the North Island? I don'…

It looks like there's just one HVDC interaliand link capable of sending 1.2GW, and dating back to 1964.

Why not install 7 more? That would allow the entire current demand for the entire of NZ to come from the south island.

10M USD per km, average 800km from centre of south island to Auckland, $8b in total. 43,000 GWh generation per years, that's just 2.5c per kWh over 10 years on your bill.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Indicative-capital-cost-...

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#58

Post by InCityDreams »

beepbooptheory wrote: post #46
londons_explore wrote: post #29

If the UK were ruled, and all decisions made, by a benevolent dictator, then the solution to this problem is easy. Consider every option of where to build the wind turbines, and where to build power cables, add up the cost of every option, and choose the cheapest (environmentally and/or monetarily) that gives everyone the power they need. An ideal market would produce the exact same result right? Well not quite... An…

You really don't see any middle ground here? I feel like a rationally and centrally planned infrastructure not based on market incentives is not that hard to imagine, whatever your political beliefs are, why resort to some kind of philosophical thought experiment of the dictator?

And who would have thought that any dictator/ political party (either lefty or righty, it doesn't really matter) couldn't come up with a decent solution ["vote for us, we will solve your problems"] like they always seem to promise? After 10+ years....

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#59

Post by mytailorisrich »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #4

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

The solution is to upgrade the national grid.

This is needed anyway because it is already maxed out and demand will dramatically increase with the transition to EVs.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#60

Post by Manuel_D »

pleb_nz wrote: post #6

So does NZ.... Man this place blows especially in Canterbury where I am. Nearly every single day it's windy enough that it annoys and sometimes ruins being outside. I must say 3 to 4 times a week 'f** this windy hole' to someone. Sitting in the roaring 40s trade winds why doesnt NZ have more wind generation is baffling.

NZ already generates most of electricity from hydropower and geothermal, so wind isn't really necessary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_New_Zeal...
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