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The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

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21–30 of 396 posts

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#21

One thing that I find hard to understand is how the electricity prices in the UK have gone up so dramatically (blaming gas prices) when a large amount of the electricity is not generated from gas. Is the price being artificially inflated?

The whole system as detailed in the article seems pretty artificial and not great. For some reason prices appear to be set at the national level, ignoring the fact that Scotland has an excess of wind energy. If consumers could see that the price difference on their end, I guess there’d be more incentive to upgrade the infrastructure and get it down to England more efficiently.

If gas is setting the price as the most expensive form of energy, then it acts as an incentive to build cheaper forms of energy because your margins are that much higher.

Alas, England doesn't allow on-shore wind power, and there's not sufficient capacity (in terms of HVDC lines) to transfer enough power from Scotland down to England to move all of the excess energy.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#22
One more thing that can be used for soaking up rarely generated free energy are cheap old inefficient Bitcoin miners.

There are many places already using it for this. Bringing Bitcoin miners to a place at this point is just shipping a container.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#23
I know quite a bit about most of the things discussed in the article from having worked for a renewables company and yet I learned quite some new bits I didn’t know about, for example the intra-UK submarine HVDC connectors (and their eye watering cost). Not a very long article but packed with clearly written and valuable information. Great stuff

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#24

One thing that I find hard to understand is how the electricity prices in the UK have gone up so dramatically (blaming gas prices) when a large amount of the electricity is not generated from gas. Is the price being artificially inflated?

It's quite complicated, but there's a good explanation here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33922390

(I recently asked the same question!)

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that curtailment is needed to incentivise private businesses to invest in wind when the output and demand can’t be correlated, but if the government owned the wind farms then it wouldn’t matter if we wasted right? We could just always be overproducing and wouldn’t have to pay for it.

The UK government? Owning things? Surely you can't be serious...

"wind power"...

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#26

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

I like negative prices, I got paid to heat my hot water tank and have underfloor heating on last night for 1.5 hours.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#27
post #11

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

I'm not sure I understand. Sure, letting turbines spin and not use the power, while burning extra gas, isn't worse for the environment than just burning gas in the first place (though it's significantly more expensive to triple-pay for the energy), but it's better is to turn that unused power into used power. The article wasn't decrying the existence of excess wind power, it was trying to describe the best solutions…

The article says we pay three times, curtail wind and then burn gas. Which is bad.

But all the solutions are aimed at reducing the curtailment of wind. Rather than reducing the gas burnt.

If the money saved by building more wind (or solar) and not having to burn gas saves more money then who cares if more wind is "wasted"?

It would be nice to use every last drop, but I dont want to actually spend money to achieve that goal when it could be used to e.g. build yet more wind, and burn even less gas.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#28

Curtailment, like negative prices, seems like something that it is hard for people to have constructive conversations about. Probably the cheapest and best option is to build more wind and not care too much if it increases curtailment. Yes, all the things mentioned should be looked into and done when it makes financial sense but "wasting wind" is much less a thing to worry about than "burning gas", and I'd rather was…

I understand that curtailment is needed to incentivise private businesses to invest in wind when the output and demand can’t be correlated, but if the government owned the wind farms then it wouldn’t matter if we wasted right? We could just always be overproducing and wouldn’t have to pay for it.

Assuming a competitive market, the outcome is essentially the same right? If the government builds more than would be economic for a private company they're paying the extra through construction costs/maintenance/financing that they would have been paying to incentivise the extra turbines.

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#29
If the UK were ruled, and all decisions made, by a benevolent dictator, then the solution to this problem is easy. Consider every option of where to build the wind turbines, and where to build power cables, add up the cost of every option, and choose the cheapest (environmentally and/or monetarily) that gives everyone the power they need.

An ideal market would produce the exact same result right?

Well not quite... And this is a classic example.

With the current policy of location-independent markets, wind producers build in the best spots, and don't care about the massive expense (to the grid operator) of moving the power south. That isn't the ideal solution.

With the new proposed policy of per-location markets, the grid operator 'makes money' by moving power from places of high generation (low prices) to places with high demand (high prices).

But wait... That isn't the ideal solution either. The grid operator has an incentive to maximize their own profits, and if they ship too much power from north to south, then the price difference will be lowered, and their profits will decrease. So they will underbuild deliberately.

But wait you say - this is an ideal market, so there is no monopoly grid operator. In this ideal market, there are many grid operators, each competing to move power from the north to the south, and if one operator deliberately underbuilds, then another will build more to capture that profit. The end result is cables will keep being added till the money to be made equals the cost of the cables...

And that is equal to the ideal benevolent dictator solution!

But... That assumes a cable costs a certain £ amount per MWH transferred. But real cables have efficiencies of scale - one large cable is more money efficient than many competing small cables.

And considering that, you're back to the single-cable-operator problem. In the market, they are a monopoly and will underbuild. If they aren't a monopoly, whoever has the biggest cable takes all the profit, and becomes a monopoly. And if you artificially force there to be 10 small companies competing, then there will be 10 small money-inefficient cables.

There is no perfect answer, except a (non existent) benevolent dictator!

Re: The UK is wasting a lot of wind power

#30
post #6

So does NZ.... Man this place blows especially in Canterbury where I am. Nearly every single day it's windy enough that it annoys and sometimes ruins being outside. I must say 3 to 4 times a week 'f** this windy hole' to someone. Sitting in the roaring 40s trade winds why doesnt NZ have more wind generation is baffling.

The reason that all or almost all of the power you use is renewable. Adding more renewable generation in the South Island won't help the coal generation in the North Island.

Right now, investment in infrastructure needs to be made to move power from Manapōuri to the North Island.

As to why we are not replacing the 1.8m tons of coal we import from as far away as Indonesia with wind or solar in the North Island? I don't know.

Edit: If you take a look here, as of an hour ago we are generating 90+% renewable, but with 192mw of coal generation. Wind is generating at a fraction of capacity and this probably accounts for the coal.

There is hydro capacity but that might be from dams far south.

https://www.transpower.co.nz/system-operator/live-system-and...

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