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India’s caste system limits diversity in science

nature.com

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Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#51

Post by throwaway_9120 »

yowzadave wrote: post #47
throwaway_9120 wrote: post #40

This is a poorly researched article that just put forward one side of the story. Ask the general category students about it and they will tell you how they are deprived of opportunities because of quota system. For those unaware of quota system in India, in easy words, it is somewhat similar to this analogy- There is a 100m race. 'General' category, SC/ST category, OBC category participates in that same race. For Gen…

> after entering the institute, they are unable to cope up with the rigor and fail or drop out. I'm curious, what's your theory for why these individuals are not performing at the level of the top students from other castes? The obvious answer would be that due to a history of discrimination and/or limited opportunities, they haven't been able to flourish in the same way. But according to you: > Successive Indian gov…

This is where most General category folks have the pet peeve with the government.

Gen folks won't mind if govt spends, gives them scholarship, exclusive tuitions to the deprived ones BEFORE such exams BUT let them compete with the same starting and finish line.

India is run by populist measures with an unending eye on the next elections. (This is irrespective of governments or whichever party is ruling.)

> So what is it? Read about the mindboggling misuse of SC/ST act and you will have your answer. It is so highly misused that Supreme Court of India had to intervene and dilute it but govt under immense pressure had to pass an ordinance within a week of that judgement to negate it.

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#52

Post by throwaway_9120 »

maheshs wrote: post #48
throwaway_9120 wrote: post #40

This is a poorly researched article that just put forward one side of the story. Ask the general category students about it and they will tell you how they are deprived of opportunities because of quota system. For those unaware of quota system in India, in easy words, it is somewhat similar to this analogy- There is a 100m race. 'General' category, SC/ST category, OBC category participates in that same race. For Gen…

Throwaway can explain everything >General category start line is a 0 mark and finish line at 100m mark its BS Let me explain OBC - around 48% of population SC/ST - around 27% of population General category - around 30% of population That's why Gov is not doing caste census Entire reservation is only 50% so remaining 50% for general

>Throwaway can explain everything

Calling out names won't help your case sir.

Read about eligibility criteria of any such insti. It is exactly the analogy I have described above.

Here is the one for NEET (Medical entrance exam in India) - https://medicine.careers360.com/articles/neet-eligibility-cr...

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#53

Post by venk12 »

Context - Indian Engineer from the 'General' category.

I agree to the fact that there is systemic caste based discrimination across the institutes specified. No doubt about it.

The data clearly shows that not enough people from marginalized communities get a representation in these institutions. However, there are so many factors at play that could influence their representation (other than the one suggested by the article):

- What about parents from these communities who are not aware of such opportunities existing for their children

- What about students who don't get science education at higher secondary level because of lack of infrastructure locally

- What about parents who do not have an economic backing to let their children pursue a career in science

All I am saying is that the caste based 'reservation' is a slippery slope. I personally know people who belong to these communities, who score very low in entrance tests and still manage to secure an admission to top colleges. Worse I have seen people bribe their way and change their community certificate to 'OBC/MBC' to get admitted into colleges.

There needs to be equity not in number of seats reserved. That is a lose-lose situation (student with merit doesn't get a chance, students from marginalized community are discriminated because they have a free ticket). The first step IMHO would be ensure access and infrastructure, and awareness to people from these communities.

Equity in primary, secondary education for all >>> Equity by caste based reservation of seats

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#54

Post by throwaway_9120 »

venk12 wrote: post #53

Context - Indian Engineer from the 'General' category. I agree to the fact that there is systemic caste based discrimination across the institutes specified. No doubt about it. The data clearly shows that not enough people from marginalized communities get a representation in these institutions. However, there are so many factors at play that could influence their representation (other than the one suggested by the a…

This. You said it in better words (than my comment).

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#55

Post by dirtyid »

petilon wrote: post #42
CharlieDigital wrote: post #2

Forget about diversity. When a society excludes whole classes of people from fields of study or professions, that society also limits the pool of talent available. Excluding women, castes, races, ethnicities seems like a poor choice for any society that wants to advance as a whole.

Here are the facts about women in India: Technology firms in India have a better female to male staff ratio than the tech giants of Silicon Valley [1]. India has a much better male-to-female ratio compared with the U.S. Engineering male-female ratio in India is 1.96 as compared with 4.61 in the U.S. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-professional/2015/jun/2... [2] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog…

Those are facts about women in Indian IT that employs 5M / 0.5% of population.

Real concerning facts about women in India is they have some of the lowest female labour force participation rates in the world, excluding Arab countries. And DECLINING from 25-30% in early 2000s to ~17% today. Which is absurd since everywhere else, female partcipation increases in workforce as country developes.

That said, my understanding is, at least with respect to "elite" fields, i.e. talent that drives development, the balance is improving. Which TBH might be enough.

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#56

Post by alison11 »

acdha wrote: post #17
petilon wrote: post #8

There may be pockets in India where caste still impacts your life (mostly poor, uneducated and backward villages), but in major cities where people are educated and modern, caste is not significant. More on that here: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-n...

That's an interesting editorial - it doesn't match what I've heard from multiple people and especially seems hard to reconcile with things like the more recent discussions and lawsuits regarding caste in Silicon Valley: https://qz.com/apple-meta-and-google-must-fight-caste-discri...

If one can’t code and gets fired as it was in Adobe case, you can’t blame caste system for it. That lawsuit for meritless and pushed by a CA EOC officer of Pakistan descent and a hinduphobe to his core.

The point being this is politics and lack of competence. Nobody even in India cares about caste unless it is election time. Further the biggest casteism I have seen is in USA between the ivy leaguers vs non ivy leaguers, particularly in finance and vc industry.

The globalists hate Modi’s India so there is this consistent pattern of hammering India on caste, religion and Hinduism irrespective of the forum. Historically India has a Varna or class system based on temperament(Guna)and actions(karma). The caste system in India was a British creation modelled after Spanish Casta system - blood purity etc,

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#57

Post by flashgordon »

dirtyid wrote: post #55
petilon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are the facts about women in India: Technology firms in India have a better female to male staff ratio than the tech giants of Silicon Valley [1]. India has a much better male-to-female ratio compared with the U.S. Engineering male-female ratio in India is 1.96 as compared with 4.61 in the U.S. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/guardian-professional/2015/jun/2... [2] https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog…

Those are facts about women in Indian IT that employs 5M / 0.5% of population. Real concerning facts about women in India is they have some of the lowest female labour force participation rates in the world, excluding Arab countries. And DECLINING from 25-30% in early 2000s to ~17% today. Which is absurd since everywhere else, female partcipation increases in workforce as country developes. That said, my understandin…

One aspect of this could be the support in India for maternal care?

https://www.sumhr.com/blog/maternity-leave-in-india#:~:text=...

Compare this with US where mothers are expected to be back to "normal levels of productivity" within 6-12 weeks. Any more is really a company benefit.

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#58

Post by MrBuddyCasino »

ElfinTrousers wrote: post #23
MrBuddyCasino wrote: post #3

What I found surprising is that the genetic distance between Indian castes is rather large, comparable to the distance of a northern European to eg a greek person: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC311057/

It seems to me that, if you have a society that divides people by caste and comes down hard on intermarriage, after some generations this is what you'd expect. Not one big "Indian" gene pool, but several smaller ones who remain distinct while still living close together.

Its a chicken & egg question, what came first? The caste separation or the genetic separation? I find both plausible.

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#59

Post by dirtyid »

flashgordon wrote: post #57
dirtyid wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are facts about women in Indian IT that employs 5M / 0.5% of population. Real concerning facts about women in India is they have some of the lowest female labour force participation rates in the world, excluding Arab countries. And DECLINING from 25-30% in early 2000s to ~17% today. Which is absurd since everywhere else, female partcipation increases in workforce as country developes. That said, my understandin…

One aspect of this could be the support in India for maternal care? https://www.sumhr.com/blog/maternity-leave-in-india#:~:text=... Compare this with US where mothers are expected to be back to "normal levels of productivity" within 6-12 weeks. Any more is really a company benefit.

It's been sinking since 2000s and intuitively, Indian TFR is not high enough to explain such low female labour force participation, where world average is 50%. Also plenty of of countries with much better maternity benefits and significantly higher participation rates, but not fair to compare OECD. Culturally, I think it's driven by traditional social pressure for women to stay at home if husband can be bread winner, or jobs get deferred to men when times are tough.

Re: India’s caste system limits diversity in science

#60

Post by belltaco »

adamsmith143 wrote: post #25
petilon wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untrue. You can get people to complain about anything, that doesn't make it true.

Just want to point out that the unnatural vigor with which HN and other forums reject the idea of Caste Discrimination is telling. If this were White on Minority racism for instance people defending it in this way would be ostracized and most would say that it this type of discrimination is beyond the pale and call for vigorous investigation into the claims. Instead all we see about Caste discrimination is "it doesn'…

That's because people on HN are vastly more familiar with things in their own country, and see and hear abject racism among their own folks. For example, the classic uncle at the Thanksgiving table, or a grandparent.

They have no context of Indian caste system, and only go by some online articles that have their own agenda to make a bigger deal of the caste system in modern day, than it is.

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