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A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

cnn.com

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Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#231

Post by JCM9 »

huslage wrote: post #219

You all seem to think this is similar in value or operation to a web app. It is not. It is a safety-critical system that requires very stringent operational and development guidelines ON PURPOSE. The idea that the FAA shouldn't be risk averse in this system is absolutely ridiculous. The complexity of operating the airspace of an entire nation is nothing to scoff at and the importance of the NOTAM system should not be…

This demonstrates a gross misunderstanding of how the FAA actually operates in its efforts to address “risk.” It’s far more theatre via bureaucracy and paperwork than actual proven engineering efforts that demonstrably reduce risk.

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#232

Post by nonethewiser »

malfist wrote: post #228
gnarbarian wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

demonstrably the policies employed by the FAA do not effectively avert risk (in software). It's more akin to risk aversion theater.

Which is why we've not had a commercial plane crash since.......2009? Seems FAA is pretty effective at reducing risk.

How may would there be with an FAA alternative?

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#233

Post by rattlesnakedave »

huslage wrote: post #219

You all seem to think this is similar in value or operation to a web app. It is not. It is a safety-critical system that requires very stringent operational and development guidelines ON PURPOSE. The idea that the FAA shouldn't be risk averse in this system is absolutely ridiculous. The complexity of operating the airspace of an entire nation is nothing to scoff at and the importance of the NOTAM system should not be…

> You all seem to think this is similar in value or operation to a web app

This line of reasoning is pure, 100%, cope. There is a reason this was broken and grounded flights nationwide. Providing cover for systems that allowed this to happen is not productive.

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#234

Post by eli »

gnarbarian wrote: post #224
huslage wrote: post #219

You all seem to think this is similar in value or operation to a web app. It is not. It is a safety-critical system that requires very stringent operational and development guidelines ON PURPOSE. The idea that the FAA shouldn't be risk averse in this system is absolutely ridiculous. The complexity of operating the airspace of an entire nation is nothing to scoff at and the importance of the NOTAM system should not be…

demonstrably the policies employed by the FAA do not effectively avert risk (in software). It's more akin to risk aversion theater.

They don't completely eliminate risk, you mean?

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#235

Post by mlhpdx »

nonethewiser wrote: post #232
malfist wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why we've not had a commercial plane crash since.......2009? Seems FAA is pretty effective at reducing risk.

How may would there be with an FAA alternative?

More. Look at the track records around the world. Similarly run programs get similar results, “differently” run programs less so.

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#236

Post by lioeters »

nix23 wrote: post #125
GalenErso wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cosmic rays are a cop out but a good plot device. They're so rare, but one could write a bit flip into a script for a novel or a tv show as the solution to any computer mystery.

>They're so rare, They are not rare, just because you don't detect them (consumer hardware) means nothing. >>study done by IBM in the 1990’s that referenced 1 cosmic ray bit flip per 256MB of memory per month https://blog.mozilla.org/data/2022/04/13/this-week-in-glean-...

One cosmic-ray bit-flip per 256MB per month. Significantly more for computers on aircrafts at higher altitudes. I kinda wish I hadn't learned this fact, how fragile everything is. On the other hand, it makes me appreciate the importance of error tolerance and recovery.

> Cosmic ray flux depends on altitude. Computers operated on top of mountains experience an order of magnitude higher rate of soft errors compared to sea level. The rate of upsets in aircraft may be more than 300 times the sea level upset rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_error#Cosmic_rays_creatin...

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#237

Post by JCM9 »

Someone1234 wrote: post #214
JCM9 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NOTAM system is something that a room full of decent engineers could easily build from scratch and make it infinitely better in a short time. It’s essentially just a database of categorized posts with some APIs for sending entries and and returning them when requested. These government IT teams spend way more than what it should cost and end up with bloated ancient tech that barely works. That’s not speaking poor…

"I haven't seen the requirements, know little to nothing about the system, but I could knock that out in a weekend with a few Red Bulls." This stuff is such cringe, it is the type of response you see from fresh CS students who haven't started working yet and think everything is a piece of demo work where the requirements don't matter and that everything is simple if you just start writing some code. Obviously the NOT…

I hear you. But the flip side is there is often a tendency to massively over complicate things in a way that bakes in valueless complexity and bloat, which is very much the norm in large government systems. I’m practice this attitude is far more common and destructive long term.

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#238

Post by nonethewiser »

huslage wrote: post #219

You all seem to think this is similar in value or operation to a web app. It is not. It is a safety-critical system that requires very stringent operational and development guidelines ON PURPOSE. The idea that the FAA shouldn't be risk averse in this system is absolutely ridiculous. The complexity of operating the airspace of an entire nation is nothing to scoff at and the importance of the NOTAM system should not be…

Paying exorbitant contracts to companies with weak talent and processes is not "stringent."

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#239

Post by nonethewiser »

eli wrote: post #234
gnarbarian wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

demonstrably the policies employed by the FAA do not effectively avert risk (in software). It's more akin to risk aversion theater.

They don't completely eliminate risk, you mean?

He quite clearly does not mean that. Please address his perspective in good faith.

Re: A corrupt file led to the FAA ground stoppage – also found in backup system

#240

Post by SkyLemon »

nonethewiser wrote: post #232
malfist wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why we've not had a commercial plane crash since.......2009? Seems FAA is pretty effective at reducing risk.

How may would there be with an FAA alternative?

You mean like Boeing?
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