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Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

theguardian.com

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Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#31

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

somenameforme wrote: post #29
AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a show of power. The mechanics and operations of a ground war against a civillian population are terrible. "surely the US will dominate because we have tanks and missiles and nuclear bombs!" The net situation seems to me to be that you're fighting in civillian-dense areas a…

I don't think people really understand or think about what happened in Afghanistan. Like maybe we were just holding back or something. The final drone strike we carried out in Afghanistan is both deeply symbolic and enlightening. We killed a guy, his family, and bystanders including 7 children. The reason is that somebody thought the water bottles the guy was loading into his truck looked suspicious, so that was a go…

> I don't think people really understand or think about what happened in Afghanistan.

I hope that's not true. I know it's more present for me because I lost family there, but, I was against the wars long before that and I'm against them long after he died.

> The point of this is that we certainly weren't "holding back" or anything of the sort.

You misunderestimate the power of the US Military. We could have reduced the entire country to ashes, and it probably would have cost a fraction of what it ultimately cost the US.

> But ultimately winning an occupation against a civilian population that is both hostile and armed, is basically impossible.

Yes.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#32

Post by Valgrim »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #11
JoeyBananas wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be true, but I'd also be interested in hearing the best argument for the alternative.

> That may be true, but I'd also be interested in hearing the best argument for the alternative. You haven't presented yourself a single argument as to why would the Dominican Republic want to do that at first place, how would that benefit them exactly?

The unification of la Hispaniola under a new regime untied to french colonialism could be a strong foundation for political and economical improvements (if made in respect of both cultures). If Canada ever merges with the nearby Turks and Caicos Islands, they could also help improve the economic status of the area by bringing a nice influx of money. Also Canada has a big Haitian diaspora in Quebec, so there are cultural ties already.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#33

Post by hulitu »

_fat_santa wrote: post #3

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

"Operation Helping Hand "

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#34

Post by polski-g »

somenameforme wrote: post #29
AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a show of power. The mechanics and operations of a ground war against a civillian population are terrible. "surely the US will dominate because we have tanks and missiles and nuclear bombs!" The net situation seems to me to be that you're fighting in civillian-dense areas a…

I don't think people really understand or think about what happened in Afghanistan. Like maybe we were just holding back or something. The final drone strike we carried out in Afghanistan is both deeply symbolic and enlightening. We killed a guy, his family, and bystanders including 7 children. The reason is that somebody thought the water bottles the guy was loading into his truck looked suspicious, so that was a go…

> But ultimately winning an occupation against a civilian population that is both hostile and armed, is basically impossible

Spain and the United States used to do that all the time. Just look at the indian tribes. You just have to be willing to be mean (wipe out nearly every male).

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#35

Post by mrguyorama »

polski-g wrote: post #34
somenameforme wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people really understand or think about what happened in Afghanistan. Like maybe we were just holding back or something. The final drone strike we carried out in Afghanistan is both deeply symbolic and enlightening. We killed a guy, his family, and bystanders including 7 children. The reason is that somebody thought the water bottles the guy was loading into his truck looked suspicious, so that was a go…

> But ultimately winning an occupation against a civilian population that is both hostile and armed, is basically impossible Spain and the United States used to do that all the time. Just look at the indian tribes. You just have to be willing to be mean (wipe out nearly every male).

You cannot wipe out a population that looks and acts identical to a population you are unwilling to wipe out.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#36

Post by panick21_ »

_fat_santa wrote: post #3

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

You don't need to fight a 'ground war' to cause a whole lot of problems. And you risk radicalizing the people.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#37

Post by throwayyy479087 »

throw_m239339 wrote: post #20
throwayyy479087 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DR is one of the wealthiest Caribbean countries, and is rapidly getting their shit together. They're also a Spanish speaking nation with enormous cultural, economic, familial, and transportation ties to the rest of LATAM (particularly their hated cousin Puerto Rico). Haiti is less a country and more corruption as an enterprise, on the back of robbing farmers who own very small plots of destroyed soil.

> The DR is one of the wealthiest Caribbean countries, and is rapidly getting their shit together. They're also a Spanish speaking nation with enormous cultural, economic, familial, and transportation ties to the rest of LATAM (particularly their hated cousin Puerto Rico). USA are incredibly more wealthy than DR. https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ Haiti speaks french, not Spanish. As I asked in the com…

You seem to have read my comment backwards. I'm not advocating for them taking over, or claiming that the DR speaks French, or interested in taking over all of Dominica.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#38

Post by throw_m239339 »

throwayyy479087 wrote: post #37
throw_m239339 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The DR is one of the wealthiest Caribbean countries, and is rapidly getting their shit together. They're also a Spanish speaking nation with enormous cultural, economic, familial, and transportation ties to the rest of LATAM (particularly their hated cousin Puerto Rico). USA are incredibly more wealthy than DR. https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-by-country/ Haiti speaks french, not Spanish. As I asked in the com…

You seem to have read my comment backwards. I'm not advocating for them taking over, or claiming that the DR speaks French, or interested in taking over all of Dominica.

> You seem to have read my comment backwards. I'm not advocating for them taking over, or claiming that the DR speaks French, or interested in taking over all of Dominica.

Then what's the point of your comment at first place then? if you were just trying to argue that DR isn't "poor", poverty is obliviously relative, there are poorer countries (Haiti) and there are far richer countries (USA). It's seems like that's the only purpose of your message.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#39

Post by blockwriter »

AdamJacobMuller wrote: post #15
_fat_santa wrote: post #3

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

> I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a show of power. The mechanics and operations of a ground war against a civillian population are terrible. "surely the US will dominate because we have tanks and missiles and nuclear bombs!" The net situation seems to me to be that you're fighting in civillian-dense areas a…

I just watched Black Hawk Down for the first time. That was a bleak portrait of international intervention against irregular forces.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#40

Post by Ferrotin »

Valgrim wrote: post #32
throw_m239339 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That may be true, but I'd also be interested in hearing the best argument for the alternative. You haven't presented yourself a single argument as to why would the Dominican Republic want to do that at first place, how would that benefit them exactly?

The unification of la Hispaniola under a new regime untied to french colonialism could be a strong foundation for political and economical improvements (if made in respect of both cultures). If Canada ever merges with the nearby Turks and Caicos Islands, they could also help improve the economic status of the area by bringing a nice influx of money. Also Canada has a big Haitian diaspora in Quebec, so there are cultu…

Improvements for who? Certainly not for the DR.
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