We need a lot more electricians • Hacker News Board

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#401

Post by Spivak » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 8:58 PM UTC

techie128 wrote: post #280

chaosite wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if the power shuts off and that saves me from electrocuting myself, I couldn't care less how much of the rest of the house lost power. The annoying part is when I plug in some faulty device that is not immediately dangerous and that shuts down power to the whole house.

> The annoying part is when I plug in some faulty device that is not immediately dangerous Do you mind, re-reading that statement? I don't even understand that argument. You should not be plugging in faulty devices in the first place...

Also because plugging in faulty devices into outlets is something that ought to be safe. Because with probability 1 it will happen in every house. If the way the house is wired makes the only safe action to shut everything off that's the problem and shitty wiring.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#402

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 8:59 PM UTC

metadat wrote: post #388

yamtaddle wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the damn things. If a breaker pops, it's easy. You have a box, maybe two if you live in a really huge house. Go there, look for the switch that's not quite lined up, toggle switch, done. GFCI, you gotta figure out which one popped. If the wiring's not great, it may well be in a totally different room from the outlet that stopped working. On top of it, they seem to outright fail (get stuck in a broken state, st…

What are you talking about? GFCIs are integrated into the outlet. Did you mean something about chaining GFCI plug wiring? If it's even possible, such a wiring configuration seems like an obvious building code safety violation. For example: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/oGJ0LxRFZ9FNcRtpABAlXPnUApM=... Edit 1: If you're in Europe, my apologies - I have no experience with the wiring outside of the US. It sounds genuin…

[deleted]

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#403

Post by jly » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 8:59 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #175

jxramos wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why's that, is there some guarantee they fail to live up to? Is there something probabilistic to them or something?

AFCI's are of dubious effectiveness at their purpose (preventing fires). They're kinda snake oil because each manufacturer won't tell you under what exact conditions they'll trip. Somehow the law in the USA now requires them on every circuit, although they aren't used at all in Europe (which has a higher voltage yet far fewer electrical deaths).

I'm not sure where you are getting this.

According to the CPSC, who analyzed some 10s of thousands of fires, something like 50% of them were caused by wire arcing that could be prevented with AFCI breakers. This is the exact reason why the NFPA is moving the NEC towards eventually requiring AFCI on every circuit in the house.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#404

Post by dionidium » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 8:59 PM UTC

metadat wrote: post #388

yamtaddle wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the damn things. If a breaker pops, it's easy. You have a box, maybe two if you live in a really huge house. Go there, look for the switch that's not quite lined up, toggle switch, done. GFCI, you gotta figure out which one popped. If the wiring's not great, it may well be in a totally different room from the outlet that stopped working. On top of it, they seem to outright fail (get stuck in a broken state, st…

What are you talking about? GFCIs are integrated into the outlet. Did you mean something about chaining GFCI plug wiring? If it's even possible, such a wiring configuration seems like an obvious building code safety violation. For example: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/oGJ0LxRFZ9FNcRtpABAlXPnUApM=... Edit 1: If you're in Europe, my apologies - I have no experience with the wiring outside of the US. It sounds genuin…

Every GFCI outlet has a line side and a load side designed specifically for protecting additional downstream outlets. it's perfectly safe and legal (and a great way to protect multiple outlets, especially in older houses with ungrounded outlets).

What OP is saying is that one of those downstream outlets can trip the GFCI and if you don't know which GFCI it tripped, then you have to go looking.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#405

Post by tablespoon » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 9:00 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #330

amluto wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good luck finding an easy-to-install whole house GFCI in the US market. IMO there should be standardized trip curves so that outlet GFCIs can coordinate with branch breaker GFCIs, which can coordinate with whole-house or other larger GFCIs, etc. You really don’t want a 5mA GFCI on your house. You do want a 5mA GFCI somewhere involved for a regular outlet, though, especially if it’s anywhere damp or wet. (And you prob…

> Good luck finding an easy-to-install whole house GFCI in the US market. Not sure I'd want one, to be honest. There are some devices that trip GFCIs and I don't think I'd like my mains to trip that easily. I just use GFCI breakers as necessary. And certain circuits I go with AFCI instead.

> And certain circuits I go with AFCI instead.

IIRC, in the US, code now requires AFCI pretty much everywhere except when GFCI is required.

And AFCI is a bit of a PITA, to the point where electricians advise me against adding anything new to existing circuits in my house (because then the local inspector would require a new AFCI breaker, apparently in other areas the inspectors are less picky and would be satisfied with an AFCI outlet).

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#406

Post by mattpallissard » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 9:02 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

> I understand that these regulations exist in the name of safety, just be aware that any electrical updates to your home will likely involve a lot more work than you initially think.

If it's been without issue for decades it likely will remain so if left as is. Once someone modifies it the risk of fire, electrocution, etc increases dramatically. That's why it needs to be brought into compliance as a general rule.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#407

Post by OJFord » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 9:03 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #390

yamtaddle wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate the damn things. If a breaker pops, it's easy. You have a box, maybe two if you live in a really huge house. Go there, look for the switch that's not quite lined up, toggle switch, done. GFCI, you gotta figure out which one popped. If the wiring's not great, it may well be in a totally different room from the outlet that stopped working. On top of it, they seem to outright fail (get stuck in a broken state, st…

Ground fault interrupters are life savers. The minor overhead of figuring out the cause is well worth the price of admission: without them you might not be around to figure anything out. In the UK, where ground fault interrupters can be part of the sockets it can be hassle, but then again that is strictly optional: in most other countries the ground fault interrupters are always integrated into the circuit breaker at…

> In the UK, where ground fault interrupters are part of the sockets it can be hassle

Did you mean US? I've never seen that, and searching 'ground fault interrupter UK' images all look like US sockets.

They're usually called RCDs (Residual Current Devices) in the UK, and they're fitted in the Consumer Unit.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#408

Post by iso1631 » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 9:04 PM UTC

mfer wrote: post #15

The article is touching on the important issue of homes but is missing three very important related issues. 1) The network that delivers power to the home. It's not able to handle everyone electrifying everything. If you electrify everything (electric stove, electric car, air conditioner/heater) you are going to be hard pressed in many locales to be covered by at home solar. 2) Electricity generation. We need a lot m…

For your network question

My village (UK) copes easily with everyone at home with the ovens on full cooking Christmas dinner and putting the kettle on after a football match, so clearly plenty of spare peak capacity (the grid has to match supply of course)

The average car in the UK does about 7,000 miles a year, in the US about 12,000. That's 230 miles a week in the US, needing about 76kWh of power. That's an average 450W draw. Homes used to use more than that keeping the lights on.

No doubt about electric generation, we need far more. Not hard, not expensive either. Generating it at a constant rate is a different thing, but with 200 million mobile batteries connected to the grid that's a fair amount of power shifting that's available.

For your power outage problems, I had one last night. They turned the power off because a vehicle crashed into the overhead lines. With no power my oil boiler doesn't work, so it's rather moot. Do US home typically have heating that can work without any electricity? Do they generate their own electricity to run pumps etc?

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#409

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

How much code compliance you need to do depends on the work being done and your local inspector.

I replaced a panel that was rusted out (there was literally a hole rusted through in the back due to water intrusion in the wall) in a house that was built in the 1940's, re-wired with circuit breakers sometime in the 80's.

The electrician said I didn't need to replace any breakers, just the panel. I asked the local inspector if I had to put AFCI's and GFCI's everywhere required by modern code, he confirmed that it was highly recommended, but not strictly required for existing circuits, only for new circuits. I also didn't need to install a cutoff before the panel.

Since I was buying new breakers anyway, I ended up putting AFCI/GFCI's as required by code.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#410

Post by Johnny555 » Wed, Jan 11, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #75

BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standard…

It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's

A whole building GFCI sounds like a bad idea, throwing the entire house into darkness as well as cutting off the refrigerator and HVAC because a contractor plugged in a damp power tool in an outside outlet sounds like a bad idea. Worse if you were out of town when it happened.