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We need a lot more electricians

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Re: We need a lot more electricians

#371

Post by champtar »

cduzz wrote: post #352
londons_explore wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some old houses have exposed wiring in damp places, so there really is electricity leaking all the time. Theres probably some wire with paper insulation touching a plant root under the house, slowly steaming away. OP is correct that in this case a GFCI would trip all the time. But on the other hand, GFCI leaks are fairly easy to track down and fix, especially with the right equipment.

Doesn't that count as a feature not a bug? If I install an GFCI/AFCI on a branch and it starts tripping and I look and find that there's some iffy wiring, that seems like a problem averted. If I install these on a branch, decide that because it's not a problem (because the old breaker never tripped) I'm just ignoring the problem. People ignore problems all the time and aren't always caught out, but sometimes "rely on…

100% agree, if it trip something need to be fixed, that's as simple as that.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#372

Post by rootusrootus »

kuschku wrote: post #210
throwawayacc3 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is incorrect. The EU/UK are on 230V at 50Hz at residential service entry.

I'm not sure where in EU you live, but every instant water heater, stove, and many semi-professional workshop devices require 380V. At least in Germany, 380V is standard for such devices and available in every household.

I think you might almost understand how it feels when someone makes gross generalizations across the entire US :).

One thing I keep learning about the EU is ... do not generalize using Germany as the baseline. There are many areas where Germany is the odd one out, not the standard.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#373

Post by nemo44x »

danans wrote: post #300
nemo44x wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precision makes no sense for a pan and is something a person who doesn't actually cook would care about. Your pans change temperature when cold food is put into them. Anyone who cooks knows that you are changing the temperature on your cooking surface constantly in many applications and it's based on the visual and audio queues your food give you. At no point have I thought "OK, I need to be at 400 degrees and in 1 m…

> Precision makes no sense for a pan and is something a person who doesn't actually cook would care about. Your pans change temperature when cold food is put into them. Anyone who cooks knows that you are changing the temperature on your cooking surface constantly in many applications and it's based on the visual and audio queues your food give you. I know exactly what to expect when I set my induction stove to 8 (ou…

> I know exactly what to expect when I set my induction stove to 8 (out of 10) and let my daily-use pan heat for 1 minute. That's the setting at which I can temper oil with dry spices without burning them.

Same, I just turn a knob and it outputs the same BTUs every time - it isn't random.

>An induction stove can heat anything quickly, not just water. And importantly it can rapidly change temperature, unlike a resistance electric stove.

Again, I'm generally not too concerned about speed here. But yes, I'm very much concerned with changing temperatures quickly which involve not only the heat source but just as importantly, the cookware which leads me to....

> You can just use one of these:...The benefit of copper is supposed to be precision temperature control, but as you said, precise temperatures don't matter for day to day cooking.

Copper is a superior material because it changes temperature extremely quickly because it is such a great conductor - it's not about precision (except with candy making where induction could be great) rather than reactivity. When I turn the gas up the pan reacts to that change immediately and when I turn the gas down it reacts immediately to that. Unlike a material like cast iron which can store a lot of energy, it doesn't react to changes in input quickly so is not suitable for many things - you can't finesse a cast iron pan very easily. Seriously, get a nice gas range and a high end copper pan and cook with it - you'll be amazed. It's why so many chefs insist on the combination of gas and copper.

And no, I'm not buying one of those useless disks to make a copper pan work in induction. It kills the entire point of a copper pan and just gives you a cool, high-end look without the actual functionality. I'd feel like a complete fool because I would be.

I'm happy induction exists for people that want it or believe gas will harm them. But it's not for everyone and there's extremely good reasons many people want to cook over open flame. When I'm not using gas to cook you'll find me outside burning wood fires to cook with.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#374

Post by rootusrootus »

mech987 wrote: post #55
signaturefish wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always forget the size difference between US and UK homes (I assume toomuchtodo is speaking from a US perspective). Here, in my three-bedroom UK house I'm on a 60A service fuse and considering updating to 100A in the future (amusingly, as part of a solar PV / electric vehicle charger install). I've never heard of a UK house having a larger than 100A service (although I imagine they exist here and there - it's certa…

UK homes run on 230 volts, so each amp is worth double what US amps are worth (running on 115 volts in the US) edit: 115 volts per leg, and US has 2 legs, so it comes out in the wash, surprisingly. UK homes have tiny little service amps!

No. US homes run on 240V, not 120, and not 115 * 2. We provide a center-tap neutral so you can split the single phase 240V if you desire. And we do exactly that for many smaller circuits, including the majority of wall sockets.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#375

Post by champtar »

13of40 wrote: post #211
londons_explore wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFCI's are of dubious effectiveness at their purpose (preventing fires). They're kinda snake oil because each manufacturer won't tell you under what exact conditions they'll trip. Somehow the law in the USA now requires them on every circuit, although they aren't used at all in Europe (which has a higher voltage yet far fewer electrical deaths).

FWIW, Google says 540 electrical deaths per year in Europe vs. 200 per year in the USA. Whether that's from lower voltage or more GFCI is anyone's guess.

Europe is many different countries with different electric code

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#376

Post by ontarionick »

cduzz wrote: post #352
londons_explore wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some old houses have exposed wiring in damp places, so there really is electricity leaking all the time. Theres probably some wire with paper insulation touching a plant root under the house, slowly steaming away. OP is correct that in this case a GFCI would trip all the time. But on the other hand, GFCI leaks are fairly easy to track down and fix, especially with the right equipment.

Doesn't that count as a feature not a bug? If I install an GFCI/AFCI on a branch and it starts tripping and I look and find that there's some iffy wiring, that seems like a problem averted. If I install these on a branch, decide that because it's not a problem (because the old breaker never tripped) I'm just ignoring the problem. People ignore problems all the time and aren't always caught out, but sometimes "rely on…

The Swiss cheese model and the normalization of deviance!

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#377

Post by claudiulodro »

ghostly_s wrote: post #320

Really buried the lede in the last paragraph imo: > According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the mean annual wage for an electrician in the U.S. is about $63,000 compared with an average of $58,000 for all occupations. They go on to point out it's higher in the Bay, and there's a wide range with many making more, but that's the mean so that means many are also making less. As explained earlier in the piece those…

It's complicated and depends on the state. AFAIK California doesn't require an electrician license to be an electrician, so salaries are actually not that great compared to other parts of the country (Bay Area possibly excluded). Oregon does require a license, and there is a wide range of salary depending on which part of the State you're in, but at the lowest a journeyman (comparable to junior dev fresh out of college) will be making ~$60,000/yr in the lower-cost parts of the state. In the Portland area, you'd be making more than $60k even as an electrician apprentice.

Anecdotally, my dad is an electrician and makes roughly what I made as a senior developer except he's way more in-demand and can make a decent living in any city in Oregon (or Maine because they have a cross-licensing scheme with Oregon). I live a couple houses down from an electrician in a LCOL part of the state, and his house is nicer and larger than mine!

Reference: https://www.oregon.gov/boli/apprenticeship/pages/trade-detai...

I would have gone into the field, but the waitlist for apprenticeships was hundreds of people long during the Great Recession, and it's going to be difficult to start a new career at the bottom for me at this point.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#379

Post by yamtaddle »

londons_explore wrote: post #75
BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

> likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. It frustrates me that every year quite a lot of people are killed due to old houses not having whole-building GFCI's. A GFCI costs only $20 and can be installed inside 10 minutes. So it seems crazy to be letting people die... Yet typically electrical regs require that if an electrician installs a GFCI, they bring the whole house up to modern standard…

I hate the damn things. If a breaker pops, it's easy. You have a box, maybe two if you live in a really huge house. Go there, look for the switch that's not quite lined up, toggle switch, done.

GFCI, you gotta figure out which one popped. If the wiring's not great, it may well be in a totally different room from the outlet that stopped working. On top of it, they seem to outright fail (get stuck in a broken state, start tripping under even very light load, simply stop working at all) much faster than breaker-box switches (I'm... actually not sure I've ever seen one of those fail? I've had several GFCI outlets fail, across multiple houses).

I get why they're good to have, but they're really annoying. And expensive.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#380

Post by greedo »

londons_explore wrote: post #43
pyb wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most countries, I don't think you're required to update your home every time the electrical code gets a change. However, many electricians will try to sell you on this unnecessary work.

You are normally required to update anything an electrician touches or could impact. So if you are having a new socket added in your kitchen, then all the other sockets in the kitchen on the same circuit will need updating, and the breaker for the kitchen. But you probably won't have to have your living room rewired.

This is not correct for my city...
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