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We need a lot more electricians

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Re: We need a lot more electricians

#281

Post by flavius29663 »

digitalsushi wrote: post #251
flavius29663 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was that because of insufficient grid capacity, or not generating enough juice for everyone?

I live in NH and my town was part of it ... a 70mph single gust of wind at the boundary of a storm came through and knocked down around 60 or so trees in our 4,000 person community. Many, many pathways were simultaneously interrupted. It is incredible that the power company got power restored in a 36 hour window, when half of it was Christmas Eve.

"rolling blackout" is a very specific term used when grids are overloaded (usually when not enough generation is happening), which means that the operator is intentionally cutting power to some areas to save on energy. The areas keep changing (such that each area is out of power for just a few hours at a time), hence the name "rolling".

The OP said that the eastern storm is proof the grid is not resilient enough because of rolling blackouts, which I find hard to believe without some more sources/reasoning.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#282

Post by xxpor »

giantg2 wrote: post #264
tibbon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a AFCI in most places now. In the 2020 edition of the NEC®, Section 210.12 requires that for dwelling units, all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be…

"At $50 a pop, that's a quick $1200." See, this is the part I hate. I bet someone patented the design, then the NEC made it mandatory, and now they just rake in the money on something that likely costs <$10 to make. If something is legally mandatory, it should not be patented.

Looks like you're not wrong: https://patents.google.com/patent/US9577420B2/en

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#283

Post by wlesieutre »

londons_explore wrote: post #131
tibbon wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a AFCI in most places now. In the 2020 edition of the NEC®, Section 210.12 requires that for dwelling units, all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be…

Some countries you have a single one for the whole building, rather than one per circuit. That dramatically lowers the cost. The only real downside is that if you accidentally put your finger in the toaster, rather than just the power to your kitchen cutting off, the power to the whole house cuts off. I think thats a fine tradeoff to save $1200.

The bigger downside is nuisance tripping because the breaker doesn't like electrical noise emitted by some device or another in your house. I don't have any AFCIs but I've heard it's pretty common.

You'd rather have one circuit go out instead of the whole house, and if all you have is the one AFCI breaker you're going to have a much harder time identifying what device(s) is the culprit.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#284

Post by xxpor »

londons_explore wrote: post #175
jxramos wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why's that, is there some guarantee they fail to live up to? Is there something probabilistic to them or something?

AFCI's are of dubious effectiveness at their purpose (preventing fires). They're kinda snake oil because each manufacturer won't tell you under what exact conditions they'll trip. Somehow the law in the USA now requires them on every circuit, although they aren't used at all in Europe (which has a higher voltage yet far fewer electrical deaths).

AFCIs aren't meant to protect against electrocution, just sparking which leads to a fire.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#285

Post by samsa »

tibbon wrote: post #116
anikom15 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which country? In the U.S., GFCIs only need to be installed in specific locations, which is good. I do not want my refrigerator or computer on a GFCI. In the U.K., you just can’t have plugs in bathrooms (aside from the shaver plug), which is probably more sensible.

You need a AFCI in most places now. In the 2020 edition of the NEC®, Section 210.12 requires that for dwelling units, all 120-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling unit kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, laundry areas, or similar rooms or areas shall be…

Michigan is an exception. No AFCI required.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#286

Post by DannyBee »

carcostthrow wrote: post #198
BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

Oh it gets even funnier then that. So I took quick look into what it would actually take to upgrade the main circuit breaker in the house assuming a 100A to 200A upgrade is needed to accommodate both an EV and a heat pump. I thought it was $5000 or so. As it turns out, $5000 is for pole mounted service. It's range is actually around $15,000 to $25,000 for underground service, as it requires digging the line from the…

This is only true in high cost states. In most states, it's 10-15 a ft plus some minimum cost that is like 1500 bucks for trenching setup. Maybe 15-20 in the worst case.

To redo my service to single phase 800 amps, which required a new transformer on a pole, new commercial panel, 100 feet of large underground drop (parallel MCM 600), etc, georgia power + electrician total cost was 10k.

If i had wanted to drag 3 phase power to my shop, which was a mile away, they would charge 10 bucks a foot, total cost 55k.

(I convert the large single phase instead with a digital 3-phase converter)

PGE/California electricians is particularly horrible about costing - i've seen combined costs (IE between PGE + electrician) of like 15k for panel upgrades that require 10 feet of trenching

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#287

Post by mixmastamyk »

quickthrowman wrote: post #230
londons_explore wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They only need to be installed in specific places... But they ought to be installed for the whole house. You do want your refrigerator on one. What when your mom is putting a metal saucepan into the fridge of leftovers, knocks and smashes the lamp inside, and the AC lamp power supply kills her though the metal saucepan? What when a baby puts a fork into an electrical outlet in the living room? What when floodwater co…

> You do want your refrigerator on one. What when your mom is putting a metal saucepan into the fridge of leftovers, knocks and smashes the lamp inside, and the AC lamp power supply kills her though the metal saucepan? Your fridge scenario is.. fantasy. What is the path to ground? There isn’t one.. you can hold onto a live phase conductor all day and not get shocked if the circuit isn’t completed. Refrigerator only n…

Yes, the pan would complete the circuit. Not to mention the whole scenario being extremely unlikely.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#288

Post by mfer »

cinntaile wrote: post #162
mfer wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a push to move to electric heat generation in homes in some areas. If electricity goes out you loose heat. In many areas you can have weeks (even months) where the temperature is below freezing. Loose heat to your home and your pipes can freeze. When this happens they burst causing damage to the home.

Are you trying to say that the risk to lose electricity is bigger than the risk to lose the other heat sources? Wouldn't houses at risk have some sort of contingency measures in place such as insulated pipes, alternative heat sources,..?

> Are you trying to say that the risk to lose electricity is bigger than the risk to lose the other heat sources?

In many places electricity is transitioned via above ground lines. Natural gas is via buried pipes. The above ground lines have far more issues due to natural events (like storms or tree branches falling).

In addition to this, electricity already hit peak loads in some areas due to other things drawing on it.

Electricity is more likely to have outages than natural gas.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#289

Post by DannyBee »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #11

Something to keep in mind is that most homes, if they haven't been constructed within the last 10 years, likely have some non-compliance with the current electrical code. For instance, I needed to install an exterior disconnect which wound up costing me more than a thousand dollars on top of the existing electrical work I needed done. The electrician also needed to replace my existing ground wires because they are su…

This depends entirely on their code cycle.

Those that keep up actually don't have much issue as it's gradual.

Current breakdown is:

25 states - 2020+ NEC

17 states - 2017 NEC

2 states - 2014 NEC

2 states - 2008 NEC

8 states - Very local

Some of them take 5+ years to update the NEC. Virginia adopted the 2017 NEC in late 2021.

When that happens, upgrades can be costly.

Though most major changes around AFCI/GFCI usage, pipe types, etc to NEC happened in the 2014/2017 code cycle.

So there were definitely some code cycles that were "extra bad" in this sense.

Re: We need a lot more electricians

#290

Post by _whiteCaps_ »

latexr wrote: post #96
PaulHoule wrote: post #2

We are thinking of switching some gas appliances to electric in our old farmhouse but we probably need to rework our electrical panel completely to add high amperage services for an induction range (my wife won't accept an ordinary electric range) and an electric water heater. Fortunately our son is in training as a handyman and that means we can get him working on projects of all kinds around the farm. Of all the tr…

> Of all the trades, electricity is the one that I know enough about to supervise somebody. (e.g. I am baffled by plumbing) Curiously, we’re in opposite situations. I have a (very) basic understanding of electricity, just enough to change power outlets and the like. But in general I’m baffled by it because it’s a bunch of dangerous stuff I can’t see with values I don’t fully understand¹. Plumbing, on the other hand,…

Not a course, but this channel has a ton of interesting content on US residential wiring: https://www.youtube.com/c/technologyconnections
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