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Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

theguardian.com

21–30 of 65 posts

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#21

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

That would be a shocking violation of Haiti's sovereignty. It would be colonialism.

Civil wars are sometimes a necessary thing in the organic development of a nation. In general, it's not the business of other countries to prevent them.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#22

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

The cia arms both the gangs, why would they fight them

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#24

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

[deleted]

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#25
Maybe China wants to dip a toe into great power style politics, so it can see what being on the world stage actually entails?

After all, China is looking for friends, and what better way to make friends than to prop up a failing regime? Propping up Haiti can't be more expensive than propping up North Korea.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#26
post #12

Maybe Haiti the Dominican Republic should be a single country

From what I understand from Dominicans, there is a strong animosity towards Haitians in the DR. A lot of it is racial, but also cultural.

It’s also worth noting that Haiti attempted several times to invade and annex DR.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We did a poor job, especially in our most recent situations in Iraq/Afghanistan. Granted, I'm not sure it's actually possible to do this job well, I think there are flaws in the system and human nature which intrinsically make it impossible to do it. See: Abu Ghraib among many other options.

We do a poor job because it’s not possible to square the circle with our stated rules of engagement. Russia did a GREAT job with Syria, they’ve managed to nearly end the war. They brutally murdered anyone that was opposed to their puppets and didn’t follow rules about protecting civilians, but they did win. I don’t think purging corruption from Haiti is possible without something similar.

We could save Haiti by carpet bombing it, killing everyone there and hanging a "free land" sign on the door and telling the Dominican Republic to have at it.

I know you're not actually advocating that :)

My point is (and I think we largely agree) is that peacekeeping or nationbuilding missions like what we would need to do in Haiti are incredibly difficult, if not impossible. Too permissive and the opposing forces have free reign and take over. Too harsh and you turn the average population against you and they start supporting the opposing forces and now you're just fighting a whole country. It's a lose/lose.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#28
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do a poor job because it’s not possible to square the circle with our stated rules of engagement. Russia did a GREAT job with Syria, they’ve managed to nearly end the war. They brutally murdered anyone that was opposed to their puppets and didn’t follow rules about protecting civilians, but they did win. I don’t think purging corruption from Haiti is possible without something similar.

The USMC imposed order in Haiti in the 1920s. The rules of engagement were pretty damned loose.

Somehow I didn't know about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha...

The parallels to the current situation are uncanny. I hope we don't make the same mistakes again.

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#29

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

> I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a show of power. The mechanics and operations of a ground war against a civillian population are terrible. "surely the US will dominate because we have tanks and missiles and nuclear bombs!" The net situation seems to me to be that you're fighting in civillian-dense areas a…

I don't think people really understand or think about what happened in Afghanistan. Like maybe we were just holding back or something. The final drone strike we carried out in Afghanistan is both deeply symbolic and enlightening. We killed a guy, his family, and bystanders including 7 children. The reason is that somebody thought the water bottles the guy was loading into his truck looked suspicious, so that was a good enough reason to kill him and everybody around him - even knowing full well this strike was likely to receive far more attention than average.

The army initially claimed they took out a terrorist with a vehicle full of explosives. They blamed any 'collateral damage' on secondary explosive discharges. The excessive scrutiny on this, the final symbolic drone strike, revealed those water bottles were full of water. And not only were the target and his family not terrorists, they were aid workers literally working for a US NGO in the process of trying to get a visa to the US. Nobody was held accountable or punished in any way. [1]

The point of this is that we certainly weren't "holding back" or anything of the sort. We were absolutely brutal in Afghanistan, and this went on for 20 years. But ultimately winning an occupation against a civilian population that is both hostile and armed, is basically impossible. Afghanistan now has the honor of being the only country to have defeated both the USSR and the USA. And they did it, for the most part, with "obsolete" weapons and improvised explosives, all while kitted out in robes and sandals.

[1] - https://www.newsweek.com/afghan-targeted-us-drone-strike-wor...

Re: Haiti left with no elected government officials as it spirals towards anarchy

#30

I'm surprised the last of the elected officials didn't call for foreign intervention, though I'm sure no country wants to go in there and fight the street gangs for control. I think the US would have the best shot of restoring order (assuming the Hatian govt asked them). I would imagine no gang in Haiti wants to (or is even capable of) a ground war with the US Army, so the "intervention" would be 90% aid and 10% a sh…

The US has a problematic history of intervention in Haiti, so we aren't the first choice of pretty much anyone on the ground. And consensus is Haiti isn't where anyone is going to be able to shoot their way to a solution. There have been some negotiations around getting Canada to lead an intervention [1], but that hasn't apparently gone too far. So...it'll get a lot worse for most Haitians before it gets better.

[1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-haiti-intervention-....

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