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A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

disruptingjapan.com

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Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#321

Post by entropicdrifter »

HideousKojima wrote: post #220
Retric wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, Japan had no issue building a wide range of popular console video games but had far less success in PC games. Language seems like a better explanation as US and Japan had quite different UI constraints in their native language.

Japanese game devs didn't put nearly as much effort into PC games as they did into console games, outside of some early exceptions like the MSX and the Sharp X68000. The main issue was that there really wasn't a domestic market for PC games in Japan, and Japanese game devs focused on serving the domestic market first. So you had half-assed efforts like a single outsourced developer "porting" Mega Man 1 and 3 to DOS (…

I mean, official PC ports weren't common, but clone games on PC were extremely common. I can't tell you how many PC games* I played as a kid that amounted to "a re-skin of Super Mario Bros" or "basically Donkey Kong", etc etc

*(often free or packed into "1001 games for free with this magazine" disks)

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#322

Post by brewdad »

olivermuty wrote: post #297
_skel wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being culturally Japanese didn't prevent Japanese companies from achieving dominant positions in electronics, automobile manufacturing, video games, shipbuilding, steel production... Why is software so special? I would argue that the kind of risk aversion that holds back software companies is just as evident in most of Europe as it is in Japan. It is also the norm in a bunch of American companies in the tech industry…

Because move fast and break stuff doesn’t really work in non-software business I’d say.

Move fast and break things gets you established in the marketplace early and can bring some advantages from that. I have yet to see evidence that it leads to companies that survive for the long haul. At some point, people want products that actually work and don't completely change with a given update.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#323

Post by [deleted] »

twblalock wrote: post #305
prmph wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, maybe they might have been slower to innovate in software, but I think a middle way between their conservatism and the free-wheeling ways of Silicon valley would have served the industry well. Imagine if software engineering was approached in The Toyota Way[1]. As it is now, software engineering us not respected as real engineering because we neglect to apply general engineering principles. We throw away battle…

The average software company (or software department in a company) in the US does not move fast and break things. Examples include large older tech companies like IBM and Cisco, defense contractors, and banks. Even Google's CEO has been talking about how the company has become unproductive and unable to move fast, because that actually matters now that the outlook for the economy is not great.

[deleted]

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#324

Post by cutemonster »

dudeinjapan wrote: post #237
dclowd9901 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m having a hard time squaring the circle of “consensus based design doesn’t work for software but it does work for cars.” By all accounts, here in the US, we regularly bounce software architecture decisions around a room and land on a best design based on inputs from many. Likewise, our cities and cars are founded upon (id even say drowned by) consensus based design. Maybe I’m misunderstanding the thesis here, but…

It's not the same as in the US. In the US, consensus would be achieved through brainstorming, open debates, etc. and at the end maybe a vote, or maybe the leader just says "let's try it my way, and if it doesn't work we'll do it your way." In a Japanese company, people in general do not speak openly in meetings, because they are afraid of disrupting group harmony. Ideas need to be circulated in a series of one-on-one…

What if one person disagrees? If s/he is "lowest in the hierarchy"?

What if is in the middle of the hierarchy?

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#325

Post by Tijdreiziger »

Alex3917 wrote: post #243
dudeinjapan wrote: post #193

Tim Romero (author of linked podcast) misses the point. Paul Graham has a far better take on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html The problem isn't that Japanese companies "missed" the opportunity to do software at X point in time--the problem is that they are culturally Japanese. Japan is about consensus-based design, there is a high penalty for making mistakes, and individuality/creativity is not valued.…

Most Japanese didn't historically own desktop computers due to the average Japanese home not having enough square feet to easily accommodate them, which is why they adopted smartphones ten years earlier than every other country except Finland. If they had had a couple more decades to play with computers before software took off as a big industry, maybe the culture would have shifted somewhat.

Wait, what's this about Finland?

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#326

Post by bakul »

sampo wrote: post #151
Dalewyn wrote: post #77

Speaking as a Japanese-American, I personally think the biggest problem with Japanese programmers comes down to the Japanese being too crafty and elitist. What do I mean by this? Basically: If you're a wizard at peeling the skin off an apple with your knife you never need an apple peeler; consequently, you never get a good peeler industry going. Meanwhile, Americans manufacture the best apple peelers because they can…

> Americans manufacture the best apple peelers My favourite apple peeler is the Jonas peeler from Sweden. https://www.kitchenkapers.com/products/linden-original-jonas...

My favorite is the lathe type apple parer (peeler corer slicer). Probably an overkill for eating an apple, but perfect for cooking a few. Invented by David Goodall in 1864! Not because Americans are bad at peeling but because people made all sorts of things with apples and because of “yankee ingenuity”. The first apple parer patent was granted in 1803! https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com//items/apple-peeler-corer-...

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#327

Post by jeofken »

azangru wrote: post #264
dudeinjapan wrote: post #193

Tim Romero (author of linked podcast) misses the point. Paul Graham has a far better take on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html The problem isn't that Japanese companies "missed" the opportunity to do software at X point in time--the problem is that they are culturally Japanese. Japan is about consensus-based design, there is a high penalty for making mistakes, and individuality/creativity is not valued.…

How is it that Japanese manufacturing practices made such a deep impact on the Agile software development movement in the West (The New New Product Development Game, Kaizen, Kanban, reduce muda, shu-ha-ri, etc. etc.), yet failed to improve work practices at home?

Maybe these software development philosophies are cargo cults

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#328

Post by amadeuspagel »

_skel wrote: post #294
dudeinjapan wrote: post #193

Tim Romero (author of linked podcast) misses the point. Paul Graham has a far better take on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html The problem isn't that Japanese companies "missed" the opportunity to do software at X point in time--the problem is that they are culturally Japanese. Japan is about consensus-based design, there is a high penalty for making mistakes, and individuality/creativity is not valued.…

Being culturally Japanese didn't prevent Japanese companies from achieving dominant positions in electronics, automobile manufacturing, video games, shipbuilding, steel production... Why is software so special? I would argue that the kind of risk aversion that holds back software companies is just as evident in most of Europe as it is in Japan. It is also the norm in a bunch of American companies in the tech industry…

Software is special, because in software the blueprint is the building, the process of design and development is one, or rather can be one, but that requires a cultural shift.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#329

Post by Alex3917 »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #325
Alex3917 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Japanese didn't historically own desktop computers due to the average Japanese home not having enough square feet to easily accommodate them, which is why they adopted smartphones ten years earlier than every other country except Finland. If they had had a couple more decades to play with computers before software took off as a big industry, maybe the culture would have shifted somewhat.

Wait, what's this about Finland?

It's where Nokia is headquartered. That, combined with nordic culture, lead to very high early adoption rates among teenagers in the early 2000s.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#330

Post by jonathankoren »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #325
Alex3917 wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Japanese didn't historically own desktop computers due to the average Japanese home not having enough square feet to easily accommodate them, which is why they adopted smartphones ten years earlier than every other country except Finland. If they had had a couple more decades to play with computers before software took off as a big industry, maybe the culture would have shifted somewhat.

Wait, what's this about Finland?

Yeah. Cell phones really took off after the local paper mill started making them in the 90s. :)
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