A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry? • Hacker News Board

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#301

Post by twblalock » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:35 PM UTC

olivermuty wrote: post #297

_skel wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being culturally Japanese didn't prevent Japanese companies from achieving dominant positions in electronics, automobile manufacturing, video games, shipbuilding, steel production... Why is software so special? I would argue that the kind of risk aversion that holds back software companies is just as evident in most of Europe as it is in Japan. It is also the norm in a bunch of American companies in the tech industry…

Because move fast and break stuff doesn’t really work in non-software business I’d say.

But again, how is that a Japanese problem specifically, when the same risk aversion exists in corporate culture in other countries (as I mentioned)?

The reality is that only a few countries are dominant in software, and they dominate to such an extent that they draw in software engineers from the rest of the world. That didn't happen because all the other countries have a Japanese business culture... A convincing explanation of why the world is that way needs to be based on traits that are not unique to Japanese culture.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#302

Post by astrange » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

djmips wrote: post #253

yurishimo wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expound upon this? I've not heard this talking point before. I do know Nintendo has a history of pushing the technical limits of their own hardware, but I'd be interested to read more about some specifics.

When you only care about how something looks and plays but care nothing about how it happens under the hood you can end up with some really ugly code. I am not claiming this doesn't happen in the west either but in general when I got a glimpse of Japanese game code it was 'ugly' compared to western even if it technically was great (fun, performant etc)

Mario64 and earlier's source code have all leaked online, so you could go look at it if you want.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#303

Post by fxtentacle » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:39 PM UTC

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #273

dudeinjapan wrote: post #193

Tim Romero (author of linked podcast) misses the point. Paul Graham has a far better take on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html The problem isn't that Japanese companies "missed" the opportunity to do software at X point in time--the problem is that they are culturally Japanese. Japan is about consensus-based design, there is a high penalty for making mistakes, and individuality/creativity is not valued.…

True. Also, in Japan, you cannot argue with your manager. There is a very strict hierarchy. Another posible reason, very few people in Japan speak English (at least that was the case when I worked there in the 90s). That might have affected international penetration of their software. Perhaps this is why we don't see much software from Germany either.

Oh you see A LOT of software from Germany. But we learned our lesson and resell it through US entities for less liability and higher profit margins ;)

(US CTO living in Germany)

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#304

Post by astrange » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

midoridensha wrote: post #132

powerapple wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's my story with the dish washer: I find it is a lot easier just wash dish as soon as it is used, it does not take more than a few seconds for a plate, and my dishwasher are only used as a place to dry plates. I had thought about the same concept you mentioned here when comparing eastern and western culture, and I thought it might come from diet, but I didn't backup with any research.

Dishwashers make sense if you have a lot of dishes, and make a practice of filling the dishwasher before washing. For a single person, this can take many days. The total amount of water and time ends up being less by using the dishwasher. However, if you have a small number of dishes so that you can't afford to wait 3-7 days between washings, and need to clean them daily, the dishwasher makes no sense.

Dishwashers are very efficient, they use less water than handwashing even if you only put a few dishes in.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#305

Post by twblalock » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:40 PM UTC

prmph wrote: post #260

dudeinjapan wrote: post #193

Tim Romero (author of linked podcast) misses the point. Paul Graham has a far better take on this topic: http://www.paulgraham.com/usa.html The problem isn't that Japanese companies "missed" the opportunity to do software at X point in time--the problem is that they are culturally Japanese. Japan is about consensus-based design, there is a high penalty for making mistakes, and individuality/creativity is not valued.…

Well, maybe they might have been slower to innovate in software, but I think a middle way between their conservatism and the free-wheeling ways of Silicon valley would have served the industry well. Imagine if software engineering was approached in The Toyota Way[1]. As it is now, software engineering us not respected as real engineering because we neglect to apply general engineering principles. We throw away battle…

The average software company (or software department in a company) in the US does not move fast and break things.

Examples include large older tech companies like IBM and Cisco, defense contractors, and banks.

Even Google's CEO has been talking about how the company has become unproductive and unable to move fast, because that actually matters now that the outlook for the economy is not great.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#306

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:47 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #301

olivermuty wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because move fast and break stuff doesn’t really work in non-software business I’d say.

But again, how is that a Japanese problem specifically, when the same risk aversion exists in corporate culture in other countries (as I mentioned)? The reality is that only a few countries are dominant in software, and they dominate to such an extent that they draw in software engineers from the rest of the world. That didn't happen because all the other countries have a Japanese business culture... A convincing exp…

[deleted]

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#307

Post by Tiktaalik » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:48 PM UTC

kryptiskt wrote: post #50

Yet Japan has had a flourishing video games industry since the 70s starting with arcade games. I would have liked the article to touch on such counterexamples and what is different in their case.

hah yea as someone in the game dev industry learning that the Japanese are bad at software is news to me!

They've had their ups and downs but will regularly appear with a piece of software and technology that roasts what western developers have built.

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#308

Post by astrange » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:50 PM UTC

desi_ninja wrote: post #32

Developing video games will come under software development and Japan has world class video game studios for decades now. Kojima Studios is in Japan

Kojima Studios has made one game using an engine from the Netherlands. Other Japanese games tend to be good despite technical flaws, like Fromsoft keeps releasing game ports locked to 30FPS.

On the other hand, Japanese game designs actually care about how the gameplay feels, whereas the West seems to think they're a kind of movie where sometimes you press buttons. (And indie developers think they're about making ironic platformers where you learn to talk about your feelings.)

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#309

Post by astrange » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

Laremere wrote: post #108

kryptiskt wrote: post #50

Yet Japan has had a flourishing video games industry since the 70s starting with arcade games. I would have liked the article to touch on such counterexamples and what is different in their case.

The article/podcast mentions how quality hardware engineering was still valued, and used Nintendo as a specific example of success. Sony was mentioned as being outside the keiretsu system, and afaik Nintendo has never been involved with one either. This also correlates well with my personal knowledge of the industry. Japan has a great track record of game design, but they aren't exactly known for innovation in softwa…

Nintendo does have a pretty strange corporate structure though. A lot of their games are made by separate companies part-owned by Nintendo whose headquarters is coincidentally on a floor of a Nintendo office building.

It even applies to their QA department (https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Mario_Club).

Re: A mistake that killed Japan’s software industry?

#310

Post by gernb » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:55 PM UTC

Is Japan's software industry killed?

If you're asking why they don't have a Google, Microsoft, Apple, or Facebook, could it just be because they speak a language that's only useful in Japan and not anywhere else in the entire world?

If you're actually in Japan they have tons of apps, tons of software, tons of games, tons of many things "software".

Certain things fit Japan better than others but for example Mercari (the ebay of Japan) is 1000x better than anything I've seen outside Japan.

Japan's feature phones ran rings around the rest of the world's phones until iPhone.

There are certainly other factors like possibly underpaying, not valuing experience, etc... but I think the basic premise of the piece is probably missing the forest for the trees.