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‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

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411–420 of 474 posts

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#411
post #291
post #48

One time, I was driving at night in the Sierra after a storm - roads were covered in snow. It's a drive I've made close to 100 times without incident. Going around a bend, I saw a car in the ditch on the outside of the curve. I stopped the car, put on the hazards, and went to see if there was anyone in the car. As I was about to cross the highway a car come sliding around the bend more or less sideways. I stopped and…

> If anyone would like to explain why that didn't kill me I'm all ears. What kills people is current, not voltage. With AC having your heart beat 50 times a second can also cause you to die hours or even days after receiving a shock, but even that requires enough current to flow and cross your skin resistance. Go to ghe hospital even if you are alive and feel well after an electrical shock! Your heart may have suffer…

> What kills people is current, not voltage.

From an engineer here, let's not continue this dangerous trope.

High voltage breaks down resistance and allows current to flow. Current can only flow in the presence of voltage.

Proof:

A 1V 1000A power supply won't kill any one and won't give a shock. A 2000V .001A power supply might give quite a shock on the other hand, and depending upon any capacitance in the supply might just as well prove fatal.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How big? Big enough to disregard? Humans are notoriously bad at evaluating probabilities and expected outcomes in probabilistic scenarios, especially in when one possible outcome is catastrophic with low probability. Otherwise you wouldn't see so many reckless distracted drivers on the road. You are advocating for a public communication strategy that only makes sense in some kind of rationalist fantasy world, but not…

> How big? Big enough to disregard? Yes, pretty much. 400 people are electrocuted in the US every year, usually in industrial situations. Thousands of people will get shocked today. The odds of a heart problem are low enough that suggesting people should be terrified of light sockets because it may stop their heart is just fearmongering, and reduces the effectiveness of other safety-related communication. This is lik…

I appreciate the point you’re making, but I’d like a source for

> Thousands of people will get shocked today

Before I come to any conclusions.

According to [0], “There are also at least 30,000 shock incidents per year that are non-fatal” and “ In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries”

So about 1 in 30(ish) if we assume they accounted for nonreporting. If we assume they underreported by 10x, 1/300 is still pretty bad odds

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK448087/

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#413
post #411
post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If anyone would like to explain why that didn't kill me I'm all ears. What kills people is current, not voltage. With AC having your heart beat 50 times a second can also cause you to die hours or even days after receiving a shock, but even that requires enough current to flow and cross your skin resistance. Go to ghe hospital even if you are alive and feel well after an electrical shock! Your heart may have suffer…

> What kills people is current, not voltage. From an engineer here, let's not continue this dangerous trope. High voltage breaks down resistance and allows current to flow. Current can only flow in the presence of voltage. Proof: A 1V 1000A power supply won't kill any one and won't give a shock. A 2000V .001A power supply might give quite a shock on the other hand, and depending upon any capacitance in the supply mig…

>A 1V 1000A power supply won't kill any one and won't give a shock.

It very well could if the frequency is high enough. The skin is like a capacitor which acts like a short circuit at high frequency. DC is much less dangerous than AC at the same current/voltage for this reason.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#414
post #48

One time, I was driving at night in the Sierra after a storm - roads were covered in snow. It's a drive I've made close to 100 times without incident. Going around a bend, I saw a car in the ditch on the outside of the curve. I stopped the car, put on the hazards, and went to see if there was anyone in the car. As I was about to cross the highway a car come sliding around the bend more or less sideways. I stopped and…

> My other near miss experience was staying at a bread-and-breakfast farmhouse in Portugal. I had taken a shower, and was standing in front of the bathroom mirror, when I noticed the light above the mirror was crooked. It was one of those swiveling can fixtures, so I reached up to adjust it. I knew it wouldn't be hot since I'd just turned it on, so I grabbed it firmly and then asked myself why it was vibrating. And for that matter why was my whole arm vibrating? When I realized I was being shocked I was able to let go and spent 20 minutes pacing around my room making sure I wasn't dead. You really can't do worse than standing barefoot, soaking wet, on a stone floor, and grabbing a live fixture, can you?

> If anyone would like to explain why that didn't kill me I'm all ears.

I once got jolted while grabbing an electric transformer. I've researched this a bit, but I'm not a doctor so take my hypothesizing here with a grain of salt:

From what I've read, it seems like most deaths are caused by 1) disruption of the human body's electrical systems or 2) severe burns where electricity enters/exits the body.

It's a bit unclear to me what exactly causes burns--it seems that arcs, especially longer, sustained arcs, are related, but not necessarily. This seems to happen more with high-current situations. If you didn't experience burns, it's probably because the current wasn't high enough to cause that.

The more common thing seems to be disruption of the body's electrical systems, which can occur with much weaker currents than cause burns. The most common thing seems to be that electricity across the heart can disrupt the nerves that regulate heartbeat, but electricity across blood vessels can also cause constriction that causes stroke, and electricity across the brain can cause seizures, disruption of breathing/pulse, etc. It really does seem like the vast majority of deaths are caused by electricity across the heart though. If you don't see cardiac symptoms shortly after a shock, you're unlikely to see them, which is probably because the electricity didn't primarily go across your heart.

I'm not sure what the configuration of your grabbing this light fixture was, but a right-handed person grabbing a light fixture with their right hand, would likely see a current traveling through their right arm and then down through their right leg and, to a lesser extent, through their left leg, to the floor (once the current hits your torso there's more "bandwidth" on the way to the floor and the current spreads out more which is why you experienced "vibrating" in your hand and arm, but not your torso). This path doesn't take the current over your heart or any of the parts of the brain that regulate heartbeat or breathing, so that's my best guess as to why you didn't die.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How big? Big enough to disregard? Yes, pretty much. 400 people are electrocuted in the US every year, usually in industrial situations. Thousands of people will get shocked today. The odds of a heart problem are low enough that suggesting people should be terrified of light sockets because it may stop their heart is just fearmongering, and reduces the effectiveness of other safety-related communication. This is lik…

I appreciate the point you’re making, but I’d like a source for > Thousands of people will get shocked today Before I come to any conclusions. According to [0], “There are also at least 30,000 shock incidents per year that are non-fatal” and “ In the United States, there are approximately 1000 deaths per year, as a result of electrical injuries” So about 1 in 30(ish) if we assume they accounted for nonreporting. If w…

It's also fallacious to look at numbers like "1000 / 30000 = 3%" and say that you shouldn't have to worry about getting electrocuted when handling electricity because it's only a 3% chance of dying if you get electrocuted.

That 3% number is causally intertwined with the fact that professionals take safety very seriously, and most non-professionals are afraid of electrical stuff and generally do try to take precautions around it, within the limits of their own knowledge.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only takes 80ma across your heart to stop it. Mains voltage, in both the US and the rest of the world, can easily develop that kind of current, especially if there is moisture involved. And yet plenty of folks have accidental contact without lasting effects. Electricity is fickle that way. The difference between, no problem and totally dead can be subtle, random and not obvious. It all depends on the path the curr…

>It only takes 80ma across your heart to stop it In a lab, sure. In reality you need a lot of amps going into the body to get enough amps across the heart to screw with it. Defibrillators wouldn't be chock full of capacitors if that wasn't the case. Constantly repeating these sorts of misleading DARE-esque talking points is why nobody takes what the safety preachers have to say seriously. People find out through life…

can potentially kill you so always take precautions is about the size of the message that fits in people's brains and everyday decision making process thus it is the reasonably actionable thing to communicate.

If you through further education come to possess a more nuanced view of risk analysis this doesn't invalidate the simpler process it just adds value to your understanding. For instance YOU don't seem to have concluded that there is zero risk through your more nuanced understanding. Why are you assuming everyone is is dumber?

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was military police in Germany for a few months and the one useful thing I learned there is that when you help another car to always protect yourself with their car or your own. So always park behind the stopped car and avoid being in direct line of traffic.

That's police training in the US too. Also, in confrontations where you are outnumbered, keep one of the suspects between you and the rest. Discourages anybody taking a shot at you when their friend/accomplice is in the line of fire.

This is fairly standard martial arts strategy when fighting multiple attackers as well. If you're fighting two people and keep one of them between you and the other, then it's just a one-on-one fight.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#418

A lot of folks don't appreciate how quickly normal can turn into dangerous in the wilderness. Because most of the time, it's all so tame. With our specialized gear and tech, there's not much threat ... most of the time. I've been on mountain peaks on nice summer days when storms appear as out of nowhere (not the typical afternoon rains), and there's lightning, high winds, and 50ºF temperature swings. In that kind of…

> A common trap is slot canyons in the southwest desert in the summer, when it's hot and dry, and hikers don't know about the rains in the distant mountains. Good example of a flash food in a canyon, and subsequent rescue: https://youtu.be/FJOpZF_4b-w

My biggest take away from this is that people put lots of faith in their cars to bring them safety etc.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#419

Some tips on where to begin to learn more about nature and survive in the wild? Maybe an REI class? I'm a little embarrassed to admit that should I ever venture out into the wilderness, I would definitely not survive. I lack basic survival skills and nature would eat me alive. That being said, I always admired folks who could go camping for days (or weeks), who could cook up a warm (and edible) meal over a campfire.

Something I haven’t seen mentioned in the replies are outdoors clubs, of which there are hundreds in the U.S. Most have a little website and/or Facebook page. Try searching “hiking club” or “outing club” along with your general area or perhaps a major park or natural feature nearby.

There are some big ones like the Sierra Club in CA, Appalachian Mountain Club in the northeast, the Mountaineers and Mazamas in the northwest, etc. They might have classes or trips that interest you, or be able to point you to smaller clubs in your area.

Clubs are usually lower-key than classes, and they go out regularly. So you can get a lot of experience and advice for free, or a small membership fee. (And maybe make some new friends.)

There are also activity-specific organizations and clubs out there. The American Alpine Club has local chapters of climbers. American Whitewater has a network of affiliate river running clubs. Etc.

Re: ‘That girl is going to get herself killed’ (2022)

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read this article and I love how they called the Grand Canyon, the inverted mountain. I hiked down into it a few years ago. I feel like I'm a well-prepared person. On less than a day mountain hikes, I always bring about 1500 calories worth of bars, 2.5L of water, a flashlight, multitool, and something warm if it's cold. It adds a bit of weight but I feel at ease with some backup tools. I made my way down to the…

Wow, I already have kind of a habit of bringing some of my water in a hard-sided bottle, but I think it'll be a policy now.

Redundancy, i.e. multiple containers, is probably more important.

While at Red Rock I dropped a Smart Water bottle between some boulders and was unable to retrieve it. The fact that I had a second one might have saved my life that day.

The scary thing is that when I packed the water that way, I totally wasn't trying to create redundancy, I was trying to balance my pack by splitting the water weight between the two bottle containers on the two sides.

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