A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students • Hacker News Board

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#91

Post by Klinky » Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:50 PM UTC

ekm2 wrote: post #86

Klinky wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you like logic & understanding? I am not sure why anyone here would promote an ignorance is bliss kind of attitude when it comes to mental or learning disorders. This reeks of the military's inability to accept PTSD as a real condition, ostracizing those who claim they have it as being weak or lazy. Does the hacker/geek crowd have the same trouble accepting learning disabilities as a valid form of mental illnes…

Appeals to genetics are usually made by the successful to convince the unsuccessful that their success was inevitable.By doing that they help ward off potential competitors.

I really haven't heard any successful startup founder say "My genetic make-up made my project successful".

The truth is genetics do matter if for no other reason than the fact that who your parents are will greatly determine your opportunities later in life by the fact that they control the country you're born in. Not to mention that your family's mental or physical health history can have a great impact on you as well. If your family has a history of depression, anxiety, attention deficit, dyslexia or substance abuse you are indeed at higher risk of developing those same issues later in life. Also families with those issues can have a greater struggle creating a nurturing environment to break free from the cycle of dysfunction.

I feel that people ignoring the genetic or parental factor are ignoring science & using that ignorance as an excuse to call people lazy so that they feel more in control of their situation despite a considerable amount of their success having nothing to do with their own effort or ingenuity.

My appeal isn't to give people a reason to be lazy, but to admit that we don't know how the brain learns or re-learns things. A person's life my be an eternal struggle until they find help that allows them to escape whatever disease they are dealing with. Ignoring those diseases does not help the person & merely casting them off as lazy or needing to try harder is not a valid remedy.

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#92

Post by chauzer » Thu, Jan 05, 2012, 11:56 PM UTC

rhino42 wrote: post #66

levesque wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, don't post a link to a post containing the link.

In this case, I disagree. Posting to that location lets us easily see the comments made on that posting (instead of just the replies to the comment being linked to)

Agreed, I like seeing the comments as well.

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#93

Post by b_emery » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 12:07 AM UTC

leilavc wrote: post #63

For anybody looking for solid tips on how to apply this attitude to their academics, I've found Cal Newport's blog* an invaluable resource. It's been linked to here before, mainly for its recent posts on 'deliberate practice' versus 'flow', but he also describes many strategies and tactics that high-scoring students at Ivy League-level universities use. They've helped me invaluably, and I find it a real pity that mor…

I'm also a huge fan of that blog. This post is a favorite:

http://calnewport.com/blog/2008/11/25/case-study-how-i-got-t...

It redefined for me what it means to understand math.

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#94

Post by neilparikh » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 12:21 AM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #83

neilparikh wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, effort is required for sure, but I think the papers should be marked according to categories that actually can be marked, such as grammar and spelling, factual correctness etc. There is still some subjectivity, but it's way more fair.

It's hard to grade a non-research paper that way though. For example, that class was a Humanities 101 class. We were supposed to do some analysis of whatever book we'd just read. So good grammar is not a large part of the grade, and factual correctness is not easy to check when you could "hit the stacks" and cross-reference any other books in the library. The teacher (who was good by the way, I'm blaming the system n…

Ya, many of my English papers are graded on factors like thought and understanding, supporting evidence etc. While, these are still subjective, for these and the measures you were marked on, it much easier to explain what a five out of five, what a four out of five is etc. rather than say effort. But, ya, it's way harder to come with fair, objective criteria for Humanities papers. (At least it is for my experienced high school mind)

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#95

Post by neilk » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 12:29 AM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #83

neilparikh wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ya, effort is required for sure, but I think the papers should be marked according to categories that actually can be marked, such as grammar and spelling, factual correctness etc. There is still some subjectivity, but it's way more fair.

It's hard to grade a non-research paper that way though. For example, that class was a Humanities 101 class. We were supposed to do some analysis of whatever book we'd just read. So good grammar is not a large part of the grade, and factual correctness is not easy to check when you could "hit the stacks" and cross-reference any other books in the library. The teacher (who was good by the way, I'm blaming the system n…

Your consistent B- grade was a measure of the class, not your work. Sorry that the world is so unfair, but humanities courses (particularly 101 level) are rife with this.

I once got an A in a philosophy course where I never even turned in any work. I think the teacher knew I was generally smart and argumentative, and just gave people marks accordingly.

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#96

Post by eridius » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 1:23 AM UTC

martincmartin wrote: post #47

There's research behind this too. The book NurtureShock has a chapter on telling kids "you're smart" vs. "you worked hard." There was even some HN discussion on it. Basically, when you attribute your kids accomplishments to their being smart, they kind of freeze up when they get a problem they can't handle. But when you attribute it to hard work, they work harder to figure it out. There are a series of fascinating ex…

This is hugely important. I don't remember where I ran across this idea (the "you're smart" vs "you worked hard") but it was a while ago and it explained a _lot_ about my life. Growing up I was always told "you're smart" instead of "you worked hard", and this left me vastly unprepared for situations where actual work is required (starting near the end of high school). By the time I was a sophomore in college I had already identified this problem, but it didn't stop me from flaking out most of my classes and eventually dropping out. Even today, I'm 26, with a great job working for an extremely influential tech company, and I'm still struggling with the motivational issues that started with "you're smart".

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#97

Post by darthluke » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 1:27 AM UTC

felipemnoa wrote: post #89

levesque wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply refuse to believe that :) As soon as you start thinking it's out of your control, it becomes out of your control.

You are right in not buying into that. Henry Ford: If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right.

"Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." -James A. Baldwin

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#98

Post by jacques_chester » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 2:14 AM UTC

martincmartin wrote: post #47

There's research behind this too. The book NurtureShock has a chapter on telling kids "you're smart" vs. "you worked hard." There was even some HN discussion on it. Basically, when you attribute your kids accomplishments to their being smart, they kind of freeze up when they get a problem they can't handle. But when you attribute it to hard work, they work harder to figure it out. There are a series of fascinating ex…

I learnt hard work the easy way.

Through Olympic weightlifting.

All through primary and secondary school, and through most of university, I have scraped by on brute intelligence and my efficient memory. Like a lot of HNers, I suspect. But that began to leave me behind. I failed algorithms. I jokingly said to my professor a year later "I'm not smart enough for algo".

"You're plenty smart", he said. "You just didn't do any work".

I took up Olympic-style weightlifting ("Oly" to friends) about 3 years ago. It taught me the most important lesson of my working and studying life:

You cannot cram for a competition.

No one training session makes for success on the platform. Success comes from months of work. A few hours, every day or two. Each session is hard, sure, but by itself does not seem like much. But the cumulative effect can be amazing.

By my third year in computer science I was becoming more methodical about studying. My scores improved and my professors accepted me for honours. Thanks to the learned ability to stick to a project for months on end, I completed my degree last year with first class honours.

I wish I'd known earlier that consistency, and not flashes of brilliance, is what would get people to think of me as truly capable.

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#99

Post by NinetyNine » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 2:35 AM UTC

neilk wrote: post #95

sp332 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to grade a non-research paper that way though. For example, that class was a Humanities 101 class. We were supposed to do some analysis of whatever book we'd just read. So good grammar is not a large part of the grade, and factual correctness is not easy to check when you could "hit the stacks" and cross-reference any other books in the library. The teacher (who was good by the way, I'm blaming the system n…

Your consistent B- grade was a measure of the class, not your work. Sorry that the world is so unfair, but humanities courses (particularly 101 level) are rife with this. I once got an A in a philosophy course where I never even turned in any work. I think the teacher knew I was generally smart and argumentative, and just gave people marks accordingly.

Did you get data on how other students did? I received an A in a science/tech/policy class which I didn't do half the assignments for. Talking around a bit, everyone else I knew got an A as well.

Re: A Redditor's insightful message for discouraged students

#100

Post by ekm2 » Fri, Jan 06, 2012, 2:43 AM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #91

ekm2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Appeals to genetics are usually made by the successful to convince the unsuccessful that their success was inevitable.By doing that they help ward off potential competitors.

I really haven't heard any successful startup founder say "My genetic make-up made my project successful". The truth is genetics do matter if for no other reason than the fact that who your parents are will greatly determine your opportunities later in life by the fact that they control the country you're born in. Not to mention that your family's mental or physical health history can have a great impact on you as we…

"My appeal isn't to give people a reason to be lazy, but to admit that we don't know how the brain learns or re-learns things." If we dont know how the brain learns why should we hurriedly conclude that it is genetic and fixed.Why cant we adopt an attitude that will make us better and work our butts off?