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Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

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Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#51

Post by paulhauggis »

wisty wrote: post #43
paulhauggis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yea, you don't need money to be healthy in a civilized country." You just need enough other people's money. "Someday, America might catch on, but I'm not holding my breath." Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? I will give you a hint: it's not because of nationalized health care. Our system isn't perfect and is expensive, but in my opinion, it's the best in the world (…

North Koreans think their country is the best too. The US health system sucks. The US spends more public money on health, let alone private money, and still has a crappy system. The reality is, medicine is something that any idiot can manage. Get a doctor and some nurses, put them in a clean building, and give them a few million to buy machines and stocks. Even the government can do it, and the government does it at…

"Get a doctor and some nurses, put them in a clean building, and give them a few million to buy machines and stocks. Even the government can do it, and the government does it at a lower price, because they aren't looking to rip off desperate people."

They may not be looking to "rip off desperate people", but they sure don't know how to efficiently spend money (example: every single government-run system in the history of humanity). If the government ran anything like an efficient business, I might agree to more government-run services. The problem is that over time, almost all end up hemorrhaging money and I can't trust my life to a system like this.

"You won't lose much if the government replaces pretty private lobbys with Stalinist admissions rooms, and tells doctors to look after the patients rather than con them into expensive, unnecessary, and sometimes risky procedures."

Except freedom of choice. Once you have a government system in place, nearly all private care will be put out of business because the government is allowed to play by their own rules. Look at the UK: private care is so expensive, unless you are in the top 1%, you can't afford it.

Nobody likes monopolies, yet those same people are fine with the government running one. The same exact rules apply. A monopoly on health care means the government doesn't have to compete, innovate, or have any incentive to give us better care.

"or you think that the management of hospitals needs innovative techniques, then there's no reason not to have public health."

Nobody that is pro-universal health will ever discuss the problems with it. I mean nobody. I can't believe a system is perfect. No system is. If we can't have intelligent discussions about the pros and cons of a system, I won't ever support it.

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#52

Post by paulhauggis »

blntechie wrote: post #49
paulhauggis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yea, you don't need money to be healthy in a civilized country." You just need enough other people's money. "Someday, America might catch on, but I'm not holding my breath." Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? I will give you a hint: it's not because of nationalized health care. Our system isn't perfect and is expensive, but in my opinion, it's the best in the world (…

America has one of the best health care facilities and best doctors in the world, NOT the system. This is not a correct analogy but for sake of popular opinion, American health care is like Apple products providing good return for the money you spent but the money spent is too damn high compared to others. Fortunately, there are lot of better models elsewhere to follow and America is not a shining beacon of health ca…

"America has one of the best health care facilities and best doctors in the world, NOT the system."

and why is that? because the doctors go where the money is. Doctors in all NHS systems have limited salaries.

"Fortunately, there are lot of better models elsewhere to follow and America is not a shining beacon of health care system in the world."

Compared to who? There is so much FUD (especially in the HN community) about NHS, I can't really believe anything until I see some cold, hard, stats.

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#53

Post by andyking »

aamar wrote: post #41
paulhauggis wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Yea, you don't need money to be healthy in a civilized country." You just need enough other people's money. "Someday, America might catch on, but I'm not holding my breath." Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? I will give you a hint: it's not because of nationalized health care. Our system isn't perfect and is expensive, but in my opinion, it's the best in the world (…

Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? I will give you a hint: it's not because of nationalized health care. Many of the inbound medical tourists to the U.S. are coming from countries that don't have nationalized health care or are coming because their nationalized health care system is paying most of the cost of their care and trip. Relatively few are buying their way in…

It's quite regular that local media in Britain will report on a fundraising drive to send someone (often with a rare condition, sometimes not) to America for treatment because the NHS won't pay - here's an example just from today, where a family's trying to raise ~$100,000: http://www.moorlandsradio.co.uk/2012/01/help-katie/

It's not because our health service is poor - in fact, it's excellent for general healthcare and I literally trust it with my life. The country (as in you, me, everyone who pays taxes) sadly just can't afford to treat very expensive edge cases, or send people for highly expensive experimental procedures, without jeopardising the sustainability of the service for others. Conversely in America, if you have the money, you get the treatment.

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#54

Post by arethuza »

paulhauggis wrote: post #51
wisty wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

North Koreans think their country is the best too. The US health system sucks. The US spends more public money on health, let alone private money, and still has a crappy system. The reality is, medicine is something that any idiot can manage. Get a doctor and some nurses, put them in a clean building, and give them a few million to buy machines and stocks. Even the government can do it, and the government does it at…

"Get a doctor and some nurses, put them in a clean building, and give them a few million to buy machines and stocks. Even the government can do it, and the government does it at a lower price, because they aren't looking to rip off desperate people." They may not be looking to "rip off desperate people", but they sure don't know how to efficiently spend money (example: every single government-run system in the histor…

The UK NHS is usually regarded as being extremely efficient, but not the most effective health system e.g.:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most...

Private health care in the UK really isn't that expensive - I have it for our accident prone family of 3 and I don't think it's more than about £400 a month, with pretty minimal excess levels (about £100 per treatment). Note that I get this as part of my pay from my employer - which is fairly common.

Note that for anything like an emergency or a child birth you will want to be in an NHS hospital - for a variety of reasons...

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#55

Post by arethuza »

paulhauggis wrote: post #52
blntechie wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has one of the best health care facilities and best doctors in the world, NOT the system. This is not a correct analogy but for sake of popular opinion, American health care is like Apple products providing good return for the money you spent but the money spent is too damn high compared to others. Fortunately, there are lot of better models elsewhere to follow and America is not a shining beacon of health ca…

"America has one of the best health care facilities and best doctors in the world, NOT the system." and why is that? because the doctors go where the money is. Doctors in all NHS systems have limited salaries. "Fortunately, there are lot of better models elsewhere to follow and America is not a shining beacon of health care system in the world." Compared to who? There is so much FUD (especially in the HN community) a…

"Doctors in all NHS systems have limited salaries."

Senior doctors in the UK NHS often work "on the side" in private hospitals to boost their income to extremely comfortable levels - their basic salaries aren't too bad when you consider that the cost of medical training in the UK is nothing like as expensive as the US.

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#56

Post by parfe »

andyking wrote: post #53
aamar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? I will give you a hint: it's not because of nationalized health care. Many of the inbound medical tourists to the U.S. are coming from countries that don't have nationalized health care or are coming because their nationalized health care system is paying most of the cost of their care and trip. Relatively few are buying their way in…

It's quite regular that local media in Britain will report on a fundraising drive to send someone (often with a rare condition, sometimes not) to America for treatment because the NHS won't pay - here's an example just from today, where a family's trying to raise ~$100,000: http://www.moorlandsradio.co.uk/2012/01/help-katie/ It's not because our health service is poor - in fact, it's excellent for general healthcare…

In America, insurance companies call that an "experimental procedure" and they wouldn't cover it either.

Meanwhile for every case you can find for someone traveling to America, there can be an identical case found for someone traveling to Europe.

http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/Cerebral-Palsy-Fundraiser-10...

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#57

Post by TWSS »

ckayatek wrote: post #35
TWSS wrote: post #31

What this points out to me is how little we know about ALS/MND. The majority of those diagnosed die within three years, but a handful can survive for decades. Do bulbar onset ALS patients live longer than limb onset? What about those with familial ALS? Were patients who die sooner exposed to an environmental trigger? ALS is significantly more common among military veterans than the general public - why, and is their…

I can answer some of your questions. The longevity and age of onset of patients with familial ALS is partially dependent on the mutation they harbor. That being said, genetic background is an important contributor. Fortunately or unfortunately, familial ALS isn't common enough to have significant statistics on the matter. To my knowledge there is no solid proof that environmental factors play a role in ALS. I'm fairl…

Thanks for answering my questions. While the lifetime risk of ALS is (relatively) low, I feel that its high mortality rate should increase the importance of funding research.

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#58

Post by _dps »

parfe wrote: post #44
rmc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? Do they? Here in Ireland people going for specialized treatment would go to private hospitals in the UK.

Nope! Whenever you see an American ignorantly claiming the US as #1 in something you can safely chalk it up to American Exceptionalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism It's a neat little ideal that helps people assert we, as Americans, are intrinsically better than everyone else, by fiat. It avoids all the hassle of constantly working to live up to our own ideals, or expending any effort to impro…

Having spent many of my childhood years in Europe (and being of European origin), I agree that US exceptionalism is a problematic phenomenon, but I also think that lately it has become a thought-collapsing meme amongst intellectuals.

One cannot deny that America is unique in its global position, and that said uniqueness is not just of the special-snowflake variety that every nation has. It has an extremely high concentration of wealth, geopolitical clout, and intellectual/creative output (which, of course, leads to unfortunate and probably largely unintended cultural imperialism).

In this particular instance, it's not an unreasonable claim that the US has a large advantage at the highest end of medicine (research of new procedures, pharmaceuticals, and so on). Obviously, this alone wouldn't justify calling it #1 (whatever that means in a multifaceted problem like healthcare, especially given that other nations feed off US-based research in their socialized systems without bearing the development risks). But I think the "Disregard speaker due to US Exceptionalism" response is thought-dulling, rather than thought-provoking.

Re: Stephen Hawking to turn 70, defying disease

#60

Post by rmc »

parfe wrote: post #44
rmc wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that anyone with any kind of money that needs urgent care comes to the US? Do they? Here in Ireland people going for specialized treatment would go to private hospitals in the UK.

Nope! Whenever you see an American ignorantly claiming the US as #1 in something you can safely chalk it up to American Exceptionalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism It's a neat little ideal that helps people assert we, as Americans, are intrinsically better than everyone else, by fiat. It avoids all the hassle of constantly working to live up to our own ideals, or expending any effort to impro…

Yes, I'm aware that there lots of people in USA who think USA is the best at everything. However there are some things the USA is best at. So just because someone from USA thinks USA is the best, doesn't mean they are wrong. They might be right. Look at the evidence.
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