Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do • Hacker News Board

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#211

Post by grogers » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:58 PM UTC

prirun wrote: post #189

lta wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess for many movements, it's possible to switch to a one-sided equivalent and use the other hand for an easier reset. Barbell press -> dumbbell press

Right, but the article says: "you may be able to cut your weights routine in half and still see the same results." If you do one-arm lowering and two-arm raising curls, you'll have to repeat it for the other arm. So instead of getting "less gym time" as the title says, it seems to me like it will take twice as long, though you will also be doing twice the "up" reps. Maybe that's where the extra gains come from! :-)

Yeah the article suggests doing bilateral concentric then unilateral eccentric, but that doesn't seem very practical as you point out.

Many movements have other ways to cheat the concentric using momentum though. For example with a bicep curl you can swing the weight up to the top, and then doing a controlled eccentric motion. On a pull up or dip you could jump up to the top.

That would allow you to use more weight than you could comfortably use in a concentric motion, to give you the extra loading on the eccentric portion - which may give you better strength gains - without having to do unilateral movements.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#212

Post by HyperSane » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 1:05 AM UTC

_yb2s wrote: post #81

humanlion87 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

May I know what you are referring to as the "classic body building" exercises. To me the classic ones are squat, bench and deadlift. I am curious why you think it's a disaster.

Doing the traditional powerlifting lifts like you mentioned is something can can be sustained long term, and has incredible health benefits. I am a competitive strength athlete, and there are a ton of people in the community that have been lifting competitively for as much as 40-50 years and are still in great shape. Proper form and technique are critical to preventing injury, I have only seen people get injured when…

Competitive bodybuilders almost universally use anabolic steroids to achieve extremely unnatural levels of muscle, which is hard on the heart.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#213

Post by rd11235 » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 2:34 AM UTC

virtual_void wrote: post #186

rd11235 wrote: post #107

From the actual paper: > Methods Non-resistance-trained young adults were assigned to one of the four groups: CON-ECC (n= 14), CON (n=14) and ECC (n= 14) training groups, and a control group (n=11) that had measurements only. Not sure why this is getting so much attention. Evidence wise it’s only a hair stronger than the anecdotal stories / advice in the top comments.

N is not the only thing that matters here. It is important but if you’re disregarding results solely on that basis then it’s unfounded. I noted from reading the paper that they based their sample size on a previous paper that shows the effect size for contractual muscle strength to be 0.6 and turned that in to a sample size estimate (in that paper). The same technique was used here and they nearly doubled the sample…

My comment isn’t about the paper. It’s only about the surprising response it’s getting from HN. This small level of evidence can be found in some paper for almost any fitness claim one can imagine. (And that is not at all a knock against the paper - as you said, it can e.g. warrant larger studies.)

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#214

Post by shakabrah » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 4:09 AM UTC

j33zusjuice wrote: post #168

MichaelDickens wrote: post #93

As is often the case with these sorts of studies, I'd be wary of over-extrapolating. The study specifically looked at the dumbbell curl only among untrained individuals. If you did a similar study on trained individuals, or on a compound movement like a squat or a bench press, I'd expect to see different results. (In fact, it's effectively impossible to only perform the eccentric portion of a squat or a bench press u…

> (In fact, it's effectively impossible to only perform the eccentric portion of a squat or a bench press unless you're only doing a single rep.) That’s true for all movements, unless someone is resetting it for you. If you don’t move the weight to the top, you can’t lower it again.

you can do eccentric overloaded training. check out flywheel machines like exerfly.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#215

Post by solumunus » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 5:32 AM UTC

tonightstoast wrote: post #187

brailsafe wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the process of doing that right now. It goes away surprisingly quickly. I'm finding that rebuilding grip strength is crucial

Are you gripping your thumb around the bar? I got to ~18 max set a few years back and found it much easier to go thumb in line with all your other fingers. Another tip is to train wide grip lat pull downs at a gym then do your pull ups with wide grip since it uses more back and less bicep (bigger vs smaller muscle). Last tip is don’t forget to breath :)

> Another tip is to train wide grip lat pull downs at a gym then do your pull ups with wide grip since it uses more back

This is a common misconception. Close grip allows for greater range of motion in the lats. Think about it, wide grips are harder to do than close grip and if you were recruiting more back muscle compared to biceps that wouldn't be the case since your back is far stronger.

This applies to all back exercises. Wide grip will hit different muscles (so bodybuilders still utilize it) but close grip overall will hit the most back muscles with the greatest ROM.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#216

Post by pcthrowaway » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 6:19 AM UTC

missingrib wrote: post #118

pcthrowaway wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are professional climbers who are 'heavy'. Finger strength, overall strength, flexibility, coordination, balance, and technique all play a massive role as well. I don't know why the bodybuilders I've climbed with seem to be worse than overweight/obese people I've seen climbing for their first time, but I've had this observation as well.

>There are professional climbers who are 'heavy'. Who? The heaviest I can honestly think of would be Chris Scharma, Magnus Midtbo, Jimmy Webb and maybe Jan Hojer, but all of them would be considered pretty skinny by normal standards. Scharma and Webb are probably around 6' 160-170 lbs, Jan is around 175 I think but he's 6'3", and Magnus is 5'8" and 158 lbs or so but has incredibly strong fingers. Climbing is a streng…

I put heavy in quotes, perhaps I should have put professional in quotes too.

Here is a larger climber who is sponsored by a lot of climbing companies: https://www.instagram.com/drewclimbswalls/?hl=en I'm not sure the extent to which he might be considered a professional, but having multiple sponsorships suggests it's semi-professional for him.

He's not pushing the limits of the sport, but he's promoting a more inclusive attitude. Climbing for a lot of people is about having fun, and very few people will send the hardest climbs, but you can be professional without being elite.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#217

Post by tonightstoast » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 6:50 AM UTC

grvdrm wrote: post #193

tonightstoast wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you gripping your thumb around the bar? I got to ~18 max set a few years back and found it much easier to go thumb in line with all your other fingers. Another tip is to train wide grip lat pull downs at a gym then do your pull ups with wide grip since it uses more back and less bicep (bigger vs smaller muscle). Last tip is don’t forget to breath :)

Definitely something you can integrate but the wide grip pull-up is less efficient even if it better isolates the back. Again, I’m not saying avoid it, but just that it’s not as much a compound exercise as a normal pull-up. My rule of thumb is to stick with as much compound work as possible as it’s a more efficient use of time. Single arm isolated work as example is great, sure, but hardly makes use of other muscles…

Definitely agree it uses less muscles. I was solely talking to increase one set max rep count. Neutral grips are nice.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#218

Post by Fricken » Sun, Jan 08, 2023, 7:15 AM UTC

missingrib wrote: post #118

pcthrowaway wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are professional climbers who are 'heavy'. Finger strength, overall strength, flexibility, coordination, balance, and technique all play a massive role as well. I don't know why the bodybuilders I've climbed with seem to be worse than overweight/obese people I've seen climbing for their first time, but I've had this observation as well.

>There are professional climbers who are 'heavy'. Who? The heaviest I can honestly think of would be Chris Scharma, Magnus Midtbo, Jimmy Webb and maybe Jan Hojer, but all of them would be considered pretty skinny by normal standards. Scharma and Webb are probably around 6' 160-170 lbs, Jan is around 175 I think but he's 6'3", and Magnus is 5'8" and 158 lbs or so but has incredibly strong fingers. Climbing is a streng…

Frederic Nicole: 180 lbs

Klem Loskot: 190 lbs

John Gill: 200 lbs

However, None of these guys are performing at a top level today, none of them have sent V16 or higher. Gill is the father of bouldering in America, and was setting standards from the 50s-70s, and claims the hardest problem he has done was about v10, at a time when no one else was anywhere near that good. Bouldering was a lonely pursuit in those days. He was able to hold one-arm levers and do one-pinky pull-ups.

Gill was also plagued by tendon pathologies in his elbows throughout his career, and those issues are more common amongst heavier climbers. Don't let that stop you from trying climbing if you're heavier, amongst mortals it's not such a big deal.

Re: Less gym time, same results: Why ‘lowering’ weights is all you need to do

#219

Post by MichaelDickens » Tue, Jan 10, 2023, 6:02 PM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #130

MichaelDickens wrote: post #93

As is often the case with these sorts of studies, I'd be wary of over-extrapolating. The study specifically looked at the dumbbell curl only among untrained individuals. If you did a similar study on trained individuals, or on a compound movement like a squat or a bench press, I'd expect to see different results. (In fact, it's effectively impossible to only perform the eccentric portion of a squat or a bench press u…

I'd like to see a study of people who do slowed negatives on deadlifts vs just barely controlling it on the way down.

I'd also like to see that. Might be hard though--if you're studying untrained individuals in a 6 week program, they're going to see such massive gains in their deadlift that I don't think programming will make much difference. I would rather see a study on experienced lifters over 6 months, but that's probably not going to happen.