Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens • Hacker News Board

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#351

Post by klyrs » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 8:30 PM UTC

phpisthebest wrote: post #312

klyrs wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that it's unsafe to drive too fast and "too fast" depends greatly on the specific road you're driving on and weather conditions, speedometers are safety equipment.

In those cases speed dependent on driving condition is a feeling based on the experience of the driver. Speedometer does not help you there. If you do not have a feeling for the safety under which you are operating, then perhaps you should not be driving in the first place? Which I believe that is the underlying problem here, We are too lax with whom we issue driving licenses too.

> Speedometer does not help you there.

Oh but it does! A blind corner will kill drivers going by feel alone, who don't have experience on that particular stretch of road. Feel alone doesn't inform you that you're in a school zone (until catastrophically too late). Remember, the driver isn't just a hazard to themselves, they're a hazard to everybody in their path.

How do you propose to limit licensing to experienced drivers in such a way that inexperienced drivers are capable of gaining the experience necessary to drive?

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#352

Post by bitexploder » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 8:50 PM UTC

kwhitefoot wrote: post #315

bitexploder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We ditched our Tesla in favor of an e-tron because the Tesla controls were just not good. you should never need a touch screen for safety critical features like wipers. Also the whole touch screen can and did crash intermittently. The car will still works (e: when the touchscreen is down) but it is unsafe IMO. e-tron has traditional controls everywhere.

> you should never need a touch screen for safety critical features like wipers. I have Model S. The wipers are controlled by a traditional stalk on the left of the steering column. Is it different in other models?

We had a Model 3. You could do one spritz with a physical control, but then had to interact with the touchscreen.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#353

Post by virtualritz » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 8:56 PM UTC

PreInternet01 wrote: post #17

I would love to see some EU legislation about car dashboards. As an occasional driver of many different brands and types of vehicles, I continue to be amazed at the usability crimes being committed in the name of 'looking cool' (stated reason) as well as 'cost savings' (most likely the real reason). Any function that needs to be invoked or setting that needs to be changed by a reasonable person while driving should h…

Particular in the context of car sharing (ShareNow, Miles, WeShare, etc.). Because you need to do the crappy touchscreen thingy every time you enter a vehicle.

You drive different models from different vendors all the time. Everything is slightly different. The IVI system has commonly incomprehensible UX with deep menus. It mostly feels designed by committee (which it is, I worked on one such system for the flagship modes of one of the top German car makers a few years ago and good deep insight into the process).

Physical, standardized buttons would go a long way.

If you buy a car you'll have an initial learniung curve and while it sucks you can cope.

As a occasional user, you're in a world of pain. I don't understand why vendors do not do IVI firmware that is tailored for the car sharing/car renting market.

It needs two buttons after booting up (and they can be on a touch screen even):

1. Connect phone (Android Auto/Apple CarPlay)

2. Connect Bluetooth

That's it. Many cars still do not offer the former at all. Either way, the latter or both options are commonly hidden deep in nested menus in the IVI's preferences.

Early on, there were attempts. For example, car2go (now ShareNow) which was owned by Daimler, had a function, ca. 2014/2015, where it would remember the radio statio based on who was using the car.

I.e. the IVI firmware of the Smart car (they only had Smarts then) was somehow integrated with the car sharing app/user profile. And it was location based. Driving car2go in Milan, Italy the cars recalled my fav. radio station there but when I was coming back to Berlin, the station I had set using a car there was automatically on.

And then the next generation of Smarts was rolled out and the feature was not only gone, the firmware the cars had was just stock standard. I.e. they didn't add something like the bluetooth shortcut I mentioned above which I had expected and deprecated the feature the previous model had.

It's almost a decade later and nothing has improved -- rather the opposite.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#354

Post by oblib » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:05 PM UTC

I grew up working on cars, repairing them, modifying them, and building them from the ground up, including race cars and advanced driving systems for severely handicapped folks that drove while sitting in their wheelchairs. Did that until I was in my early 30s.

I've worked with and for some fairly famous racers. Tony Nancy, Sonny Easly, Larry Fullerton to name a few. Built custom driving systems for Teddy Pendergrass and Jill Kilmont (and a few 100s of others. I learned a lot very fast doing that.

Safe driving requires the ability to predict what drivers around you will do. Almost everyone of those folks I met who were involve in a crash were at least partially responsible and most often distracted by something.

When those touchscreens first came out I was stunned because there is no way a driver can focus on those and driving at the same time. That's obviously impossible and it only takes a second of driver distraction to get into a crash situation ("accident" is not a valid description for this).

A driver can learn how to change the radio station on those old manual push button/twist knob interfaces while keeping their eyes on the road. But you cannot do that with a touchscreen (even though the original Apple interface used those physical interfaces as a design model for their graphic interface widgets).

And some of those screens are obnoxiously huge and are not very intuitive. So the root of the problem is the driver must focus on the screen to find the option they want to interact with and that is a huge distraction from "driving" the vehicle.

So what's really concerning is their are there a fast growing number folks who think they can safely use them. A quick search on that brought this up: "a recent study by the Governors Highway Safety Association (GHSA) indicates that distracted driving-related fatalities are on the rise, increasing nearly ten percent from 2018 to 2019." []

Fair to say close to nothing is being done to address that.

I started building my 1st custom car for myself when I was 14 years old and had it street legal and registered shortly after I turned 16 and got my license. It was a "Hot Rod 50 Ford" coupe with a 350 Chevy engine and auto trans. I lived in LA and there was a vibrant "Street Racing" culture there, but I never raced. By then I'd already seen so much death and injury from car crashes that I knew every car on the road with me was dangerous.

I am 63 years old now. I have never been in an accident. Never gotten a moving violation citation, or any kind of "ticket". It's not been difficult but I have had to dodge a few car and truck sized bullets over the years.

[] https://www.dkinglaw.com/distracted-driving-increasing/

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/09/556701181/touch-screens-are-d...

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#355

Post by buildbot » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:08 PM UTC

perth wrote: post #288

buildbot wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had 2 Audis now with the virtual cockpit and literally never had an issue- this seems like something an Audi dealer would replace under warranty as defective right away.

Well, after 2 failed attempts at fixing under mandatory Lemon Law replacement of course :)

Hmm was it purchased during the chip shortage? I wonder if it had a bad redesign to switch some small IC out or even some counterfeit ICs.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#356

Post by DoingIsLearning » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:09 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #342

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regulating is how we got here. They put the screens in to serve backup cameras. Once you need to have a screen somewhere why not make it replace all the stuff? Engineers love it because less moving parts, fewer parts. Software loves it because ship garbage now fix with updated version later. Designers love it because "clean lines and crap". Marketing loves it because high tech. Bean counters love it for all the above…

This is not true. The screens predate that US regulation. And that regulation is purely US one, EU does not require camera.

Worth pointing out that the regulation is US only because of the amount of kids dying while backing up oversized trucks with zero visibility.

It is absolutely bewildering how they have let this 'bigger is better' arms race run wild in US roads. Sure lets fit cameras rather than stop designing armoured vehicles.

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#357

Post by nkozyra » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:10 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #347

nkozyra wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Many have occurred and easily discovered with a quick Google. In my grad school CS human computer interaction we reviewed a lot of prior work and individually did our own. https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-50523-3_... https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cartoq.com/physical-buttons... https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/cars/2022/08/ye... And many more. This largely confirms something t…

Uh... your third link is coverage of the same non-study being discussed, your second is an auto-generated link farm page that puts "study" in the title but doesn't even talk about one, and the first is a real study that absolutely does not substantiate what you're claiming. Maybe link the "many more"?

Physical or voice v touchscreen:

https://www.cartoq.com/using-touchscreen-cars-driving-danger...

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2017/10/new-vehicle-infotainment-sy...

https://www.nngroup.com/articles/tesla-big-touchscreen/

https://internationalfleetworld.com/in-car-touchscreens-much...

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#358

Post by phpisthebest » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:19 PM UTC

klyrs wrote: post #351

phpisthebest wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In those cases speed dependent on driving condition is a feeling based on the experience of the driver. Speedometer does not help you there. If you do not have a feeling for the safety under which you are operating, then perhaps you should not be driving in the first place? Which I believe that is the underlying problem here, We are too lax with whom we issue driving licenses too.

> Speedometer does not help you there. Oh but it does! A blind corner will kill drivers going by feel alone, who don't have experience on that particular stretch of road. Feel alone doesn't inform you that you're in a school zone (until catastrophically too late). Remember, the driver isn't just a hazard to themselves, they're a hazard to everybody in their path. How do you propose to limit licensing to experienced d…

>> A blind corner will kill drivers going by feel alone, who don't have experience on that particular stretch of road.

What exactly does not have to do with a speedometer? that is about road signs.

Knowing exactly what speed you are going has no bearing on your ability to navigate a blind corner. I am very confused by this statement

Based on visual cues alone you should know with in 10MPH how fast you are going anyway, if you can not tell how fast you are traveling generally with out looking at the speedometer you should not be driving

>How do you propose to limit licensing to experienced drivers in such a way that inexperienced drivers are capable of gaining the experience necessary to drive?

Well it seems to be popular in this thread to make flying a plan an analog for driving so how about simulators like they do for pilots, longer training, more time having to drive with an experienced driver. There are lots of things that could be done

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#359

Post by phpisthebest » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:31 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #339

phpisthebest wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I can't imagine how a rational and empathetic Empathy and rationality are often in conflict, you seem to side more on the empathetic side where I do not. I am purely on the logical / rational side and freely admit to having very low Empathy. >>someone to who can't be reasoned out of their opinions simply because they didn't reason themselves I literally linked to a site called Reason.com.... It provides a very reas…

Logic and rationality are not inherently opposed to empathy. That being said, one does not need to be empath to value not causing accidents to other people. "This will lead to more accidents" is both logical and rational claim. The ideological investment into idea that one must be selfish to max to look "logical" is irrational.

Now where do I, nor the link, advocate for ignoring accidents to other people. In fact the goal is to actually lessen them which I and others advocate is not the actual goal of people pursing some of these regulations. Control and power seems to be the control. In the case of DUI laws in the US it seems to be primary born out of the desire to get around 4th amendment search provisions not about safety

I fail to see how advocating for very harsh punishment for people that cause accidents to other people, including prison and revocation of driving license has been twisted here to be something that is illogical and disregarding to others.

I also fail to understand why a person should not have the responsibility upon buying a vehicle to understand how to operate it safely, no matter if the interface is a Button or Touch screen. Do we give a pass to someone if they were fumbling with buttons? It is insanity to me how much society has drifted away from personal responsibility to everything being everyone else's fault

Re: Study finds that buttons in cars are safer and quicker to use than touchscreens

#360

Post by vel0city » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:47 PM UTC

kwhitefoot wrote: post #315

bitexploder wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We ditched our Tesla in favor of an e-tron because the Tesla controls were just not good. you should never need a touch screen for safety critical features like wipers. Also the whole touch screen can and did crash intermittently. The car will still works (e: when the touchscreen is down) but it is unsafe IMO. e-tron has traditional controls everywhere.

> you should never need a touch screen for safety critical features like wipers. I have Model S. The wipers are controlled by a traditional stalk on the left of the steering column. Is it different in other models?

Newer S and X models don't have stalks. There's rumors they'll drop the stalks on the Model 3 refresh.