Software horror show: SAP Concur • Hacker News Board

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#61

Post by pavlov » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 9:58 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #24

jl6 wrote: post #12

The most fundamental theorem of Enterprise software is that the users aren’t the the customer, and so UX issues fall to the very bottom of the priority list. So the explanation is very plausible. Furthermore, amongst the already-low-priority UX issues, I can imagine UX of the expenses application being rock bottom, because which business ever called up their ERP vendor and said “we need to make it easier for our staf…

> which business ever called up their ERP vendor and said “we need to make it easier for our staff to claim expenses”? Businesses that were fed up with fielding questions from employees about how to claim expenses? In my experience it's reasonably common for companies to switch expense claim systems because their existing one was rubbish. I haven't worked for any SAP-using megacorps though tbf.

There’s Expensify which is supposed to have a very good UX and does about $200M annual revenue. So at least that much people are willing to pay for a better expense claim tool.

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#62

Post by Moissanite » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:00 AM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #25

jl6 wrote: post #12

The most fundamental theorem of Enterprise software is that the users aren’t the the customer, and so UX issues fall to the very bottom of the priority list. So the explanation is very plausible. Furthermore, amongst the already-low-priority UX issues, I can imagine UX of the expenses application being rock bottom, because which business ever called up their ERP vendor and said “we need to make it easier for our staf…

That is the crux of it. I have a background in finance, and I think everyone is missing the problem that this is trying to solve. People are careless when they claim expenses. They claim for things they lost the receipt for and then they try and pressure some accounts clerk into forcing it through. They make careless mistakes like multiplying their milage by the wrong rate, because they don't see why they should have…

Wouldn't a flat per diem payment make more sense then? That way you don't need the complex (and presumably pricey) expenses software, and you don't torture your employees with it when they could be doing something useful.

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#63

Post by hef19898 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:01 AM UTC

hbarka wrote: post #52

I don’t understand the disdain here in Hacker News for enterprise software. Every now and then this type of post would show up, decrying how terrible the user interface is or how awful looking the fonts are and how they can program the same functions in 1000 lines of code and support thousands of users. These companies have revenue in the billions. They have enabled large companies, since before many of us were born.…

Thank you! I once had the pleasure (ahem) to work with a "solution architect" who shared the opinion around enterprise software you mentioned. He was in charge of getting the MRP running, but he had no idea how MRP works, e.g. he set thought having one (!) use case without (!) lead times life represents a successful implementation... Almost a year later, I still try to clean that mess up...

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#64

Post by robertlagrant » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:01 AM UTC

jimnotgym wrote: post #25

jl6 wrote: post #12

The most fundamental theorem of Enterprise software is that the users aren’t the the customer, and so UX issues fall to the very bottom of the priority list. So the explanation is very plausible. Furthermore, amongst the already-low-priority UX issues, I can imagine UX of the expenses application being rock bottom, because which business ever called up their ERP vendor and said “we need to make it easier for our staf…

That is the crux of it. I have a background in finance, and I think everyone is missing the problem that this is trying to solve. People are careless when they claim expenses. They claim for things they lost the receipt for and then they try and pressure some accounts clerk into forcing it through. They make careless mistakes like multiplying their milage by the wrong rate, because they don't see why they should have…

I think it's fine to have expenses software, but I'd love to have something modern and usable. I think the problem is that if you try and make that, all your customers secretly want a clunky ERP and need all the non-expenses features built.

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#65

Post by robertlagrant » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:03 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #63

hbarka wrote: post #52

I don’t understand the disdain here in Hacker News for enterprise software. Every now and then this type of post would show up, decrying how terrible the user interface is or how awful looking the fonts are and how they can program the same functions in 1000 lines of code and support thousands of users. These companies have revenue in the billions. They have enabled large companies, since before many of us were born.…

Thank you! I once had the pleasure (ahem) to work with a "solution architect" who shared the opinion around enterprise software you mentioned. He was in charge of getting the MRP running, but he had no idea how MRP works, e.g. he set thought having one (!) use case without (!) lead times life represents a successful implementation... Almost a year later, I still try to clean that mess up...

I have a similar thing with people who think snow is white. Joseph Stalin also thought that, and he killed 50 million people!

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#66

Post by hef19898 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:03 AM UTC

samwillis wrote: post #29

pflenker wrote: post #23

With sap, the end user is not the customer. Hence, the whole thing is designed to pass a sales pitch and nothing else. The people who use this are not the ones who make the buy decision.

That's the same with all enterprise software sales. However the counter argument is that there are multiple layers of "end user" and the executives who purchase it, but don't "use" it, are still recipients of the the output from the system. They will read the reports, and use it for insight. Point is though, you are right, the majority of users of these systems are very removed from the purchasing decisions. And ther…

Everybody but upper management uses ERP systems to literally keep the lights on. And some of those reports are to be published quarterly, you know, balance sheets and such...

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#67

Post by hef19898 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:06 AM UTC

Moissanite wrote: post #62

jimnotgym wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the crux of it. I have a background in finance, and I think everyone is missing the problem that this is trying to solve. People are careless when they claim expenses. They claim for things they lost the receipt for and then they try and pressure some accounts clerk into forcing it through. They make careless mistakes like multiplying their milage by the wrong rate, because they don't see why they should have…

Wouldn't a flat per diem payment make more sense then? That way you don't need the complex (and presumably pricey) expenses software, and you don't torture your employees with it when they could be doing something useful.

Depending on jurisdiction, taxes. So it is most likely not the company responsible for the "torturing"...

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#68

Post by robertlagrant » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:07 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #48

pflenker wrote: post #23

With sap, the end user is not the customer. Hence, the whole thing is designed to pass a sales pitch and nothing else. The people who use this are not the ones who make the buy decision.

The whole system, SAP is way more than expenses (!), is there to keep multi-national manufacturing networks running. And to pass all kinds of quality and financial audits. That people fail to realize that, and still think dumping on legacy UI and ERP systems, is just beyond me...

People do realise that. That doesn't mean SAP has a good UI.

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#69

Post by dig1 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:07 AM UTC

hbarka wrote: post #52

I don’t understand the disdain here in Hacker News for enterprise software. Every now and then this type of post would show up, decrying how terrible the user interface is or how awful looking the fonts are and how they can program the same functions in 1000 lines of code and support thousands of users. These companies have revenue in the billions. They have enabled large companies, since before many of us were born.…

I think it is a superiority complex. SAP, IBM, Oracle (and many small companies running for ages) are all making "shitty" products, yet, every year, their revenue is in billions.

On the other hand, we have "beautifully hand-crafted products with love" made in the best languages human can invent (your favorite language only HN crowd dicking around), and those companies are barely paying their developers and bills. But hey, their products are auto-scalable, kubernetes managed, disrupting the industry, powered with green, recycled energy, and vegan food with hand-picked ingredients...

I'll leave it to the astute reader to concur with the pattern here.

Re: Software horror show: SAP Concur

#70

Post by themoonisachees » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 10:09 AM UTC

hbarka wrote: post #52

I don’t understand the disdain here in Hacker News for enterprise software. Every now and then this type of post would show up, decrying how terrible the user interface is or how awful looking the fonts are and how they can program the same functions in 1000 lines of code and support thousands of users. These companies have revenue in the billions. They have enabled large companies, since before many of us were born.…

As a sysadmin i often get dealt the worst part of programs. I get thrown for the update stuff but never actually use the programs so i never get to say "well it's a pain tp update but a joy to use". When i was sysadmin in a small firm, updating SAP components was always the single most furstrating experience, and we ran Matlab.

As someone who has a degree in CS who had to go through "enterprise programming" courses, it's honestly appalling how SAP and Sage are. They're like the Teslas of programming, people who don't know better swear they're great but you can _see_ them coming apart at the seams, and you know that you could do better because you have, back in university.

add to that a healthy dose of anti-establisment and you get the hatred at SAP and Sage, bad products that are viable because they were first to market 30 years ago and now have the necessary connections to appear legit to unknowing decision makers. They have revenues in the billions because the sell the same software as 20 years ago at a premium but switching would be too expensive, so the clients stay.