Currently listening to Peter Zeehan's The End of the World is Just the Beginning and this seems to jive with his viewpoint as well. That is - the geographic location of a country, plus rivers, plus ocean ports, is the core characteristic of those empires that succeeded or failed. He talks about a "cruchy exterior, creamy middle" IE: borders that are protected in some way, for example by an ocean, with an interior of vast farmland easily passable by roads and rail.
How transportation technologies shaped empires
271–280 of 313 posts
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
> > But for future interplanetary colonization, the rule would become one light month. Not very far. But imagine any form of communication taking years to bounce back and forth. That could not be centrally governed. It might not just be travel time, but it probably does correlate. > The rule seems too simplistic. What's so special about 1 month? Is the significant value time to communicate, time to move military forc…
>> Having local forces isn't a good answer, because one of the easier paths to rebellion is for the leader(s) those forces to declare independence and make themselves kings. > Have assassins embedded in their chain of command, so poison or dagger is always just few metres away. And they know how short their rein as a king will be. I don't think that would be as effective as you think it would be. Why would your assas…
The rebellion would have to distribute its resources amongst an army large enough to hold a planet. At that scale, teams of dozens of people would be sufficiently motivated to kill whoever, if their reward is still some fraction of that.
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#273>This also helps explain for example why feudalism was so prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages. Without well-maintained Roman roads, the time needed to go from one place to another extended, which made it that much harder to control big empires. Small, local warlords emerged. They were the ones with enough money to afford a horse and armor This point is another reminder for me that Game of Thrones' Westeros, th…
This medieval example sounds like an easy shortcut though.
At part of Europe, roads were always maintened. Maybe with more local that country-wide focus sometimes. The feudalism may not caused by road system efficiency. Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders.
Local power and defence is needed... leading to another important parameter. Size of empires is proportional to time of travel and relative defensive strength of the remote area.
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#274>This also helps explain for example why feudalism was so prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages. Without well-maintained Roman roads, the time needed to go from one place to another extended, which made it that much harder to control big empires. Small, local warlords emerged. They were the ones with enough money to afford a horse and armor This point is another reminder for me that Game of Thrones' Westeros, th…
Also the stability of the Kingdoms of Westeros is ridiculous given their ages. Supposedly they were divided into the Kingdoms of the North/Vale/Iron Islands/Reach/Rock/Stormlands/Dorne in the Age of Heroes - 10,000 years before the Targaryen conquest. 10,000 years is twice as long as all of recorded human history. In that time on earth, dozens of empires have risen and fallen. The center of civilization moved from th…
Ha, yes, the same series where we get like two pages dedicated to detailing every notable knight and lord that either died or lost their titles owing to the Battle of the Blackwater is also the series where political powers and contours basically never change.
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#275Counterargument: Manila galleons plied the seas for 250 years . • First trade ships would stop in Ming China then take their cargoes to Manila. It took months to get there and back to Manila. • The leg from Manila to Monterey, California, took about three months. • The next leg, from Monterey to Acapulco, was another month. In total, it could be five or six months travel. • Cargo was unloaded in Acapulco to be sent o…
The article wasn’t on trade exactly, but makes the argument that travel time determines empire limits (geographically or temporally). If this is true, trade probably played a significant role in the effectiveness of empires in maintaining control.
That is, I don’t think your comment is a counterargument, unless I’m missing something.
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#276>This also helps explain for example why feudalism was so prevalent in Europe during the Middle Ages. Without well-maintained Roman roads, the time needed to go from one place to another extended, which made it that much harder to control big empires. Small, local warlords emerged. They were the ones with enough money to afford a horse and armor This point is another reminder for me that Game of Thrones' Westeros, th…
This medieval example sounds like an easy shortcut though. At part of Europe, roads were always maintened. Maybe with more local that country-wide focus sometimes. The feudalism may not caused by road system efficiency. Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders. Local power and defence is needed... leading to another important parameter. Size of empires is p…
> Good roads on a empire splitted by succession are still no match to fast manoeuvrable drakkar raiders.
That's the issue though, dragons had gone extinct in Westeros 150 years before the series begins its story
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#277This will significantly limit humanity's ambitions to colonize outer space.
Fortunately, while this study may exist, imperial ambitions know no bounds, so we'll colonize just fine. Sure, decades later, they may break away, but that's decades later's problem. Plus, this analysis is implicitly in the context of a world where the regions have the ability to be self-sustaining on at least the basics of life, so breaking away is a viable option. If the "empire" is also "your supply of oxygen", br…
The ambition of kings was unlimited, but we no longer live under monarchies.
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not sure Venus is within 1 month travel time. Granted this is with Apollo era technology... but we're still talking Saturn V https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Venus_flyby > The proposed mission would have used a Saturn V to send three astronauts on a flight past Venus, which would have lasted approximately one year. > ... > Phase C would be the actual manned flyby, using a Block IV CSM and an updated version of th…
The Venus missions... One way rendezvous - 80 days is the minimal - https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/traj_browser.php?NEAs=on&NE... If you're just doing a flyby and letting the ship then get lost, it can get down to 48 days https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/traj_browser.php?NEAs=on&NE... The one way flyby is not likely one that would be good for human travelers as you aren't really stopping (or even slowing down enoug…
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Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
> > But for future interplanetary colonization, the rule would become one light month. Not very far. But imagine any form of communication taking years to bounce back and forth. That could not be centrally governed. It might not just be travel time, but it probably does correlate. > The rule seems too simplistic. What's so special about 1 month? Is the significant value time to communicate, time to move military forc…
>> Having local forces isn't a good answer, because one of the easier paths to rebellion is for the leader(s) those forces to declare independence and make themselves kings. > Have assassins embedded in their chain of command, so poison or dagger is always just few metres away. And they know how short their rein as a king will be. I don't think that would be as effective as you think it would be. Why would your assas…
Blackmail is a wonderful thing if you know how to use it. For example if would be assassin doesn't fullfil his duty a little bird can whisper his name to people who would very violently frown at would be assassin. Or have things that for his wellbeing should be left in shadows. Things that you would prefer not to see in the planetary governor or a general. It's good to have some disposable pawns to do some dirty work. Even better if they can't be connected to you.
Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires
#280So… the moon, or even Venus?
Not sure Venus is within 1 month travel time. Granted this is with Apollo era technology... but we're still talking Saturn V https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Venus_flyby > The proposed mission would have used a Saturn V to send three astronauts on a flight past Venus, which would have lasted approximately one year. > ... > Phase C would be the actual manned flyby, using a Block IV CSM and an updated version of th…
But is it an Earth month or a Venus month? Does Venus even have months?