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How transportation technologies shaped empires

unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com

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Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#241

Post by renewiltord »

UncleMeat wrote: post #188
manv1 wrote: post #132

That's not true, as evidenced by many, many empires, past and present (Spanish, British, Roman, American) that spanned more than a month of travel. What they're trying to say is that the span of control is limited by the ability to project power/information to the extremities of the empire. That makes sense, but the way they measure the limits is wrong. The way the empires get around this problem is by putting people…

History of Empire, History of Travel Technology, and History of Communications Technology are huuuuge fields with tons of professionals working today. I'm a little concerned about huge claims being made about empire by a Stanford MBA and a community of people mostly experienced in software and tech. The historians would love for you to read their books! AHA is literally happening right now ! Go to bars in Philly and…

Yeah, but software engineers are better at many things than professionals in their fields. The classic example is Jeff Bezos and gang stopping their companies from flying people to/from China a month before US authorities reacted to COVID-19. They also cancelled conferences two weeks before shelter-in-place and asked people to work from home.

Tech professionals said that masks would help in the early stages while the US Surgeon General said "Masks don't work!" and Dr. Fauci said that you shouldn't be wearing any.

This is the magic of tech: the people there are there for comparative advantage. They would be better than epidemiologists at epidemiology and better than public health experts at public health. But they're much better at tech than epidemiologists and public health experts are at tech, and so they go to tech.

In a similar vein, I would be unsurprised to find that new insights about history come from technologists. Of course, I don't think this is one.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#244

Post by jfk13 »

Balgair wrote: post #168
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSGWoXDFM64

For another awesome rendition, try the Simon Gallagher production, with Derek Metzger as the Major-General; the entire show is (in my opinion) utterly fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DJaNbD6R2s&list=PLXRhW-jVlF... (shame about the video quality, but it's still well worth watching)

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#246

Post by mjcohen »

dalbasal wrote: post #200
vondur wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Barbarism is certainly a factor in the Roman expansion into Germania, but if you look at how the Romans were able to colonize Gaul completely. I think originally they thought they could follow the same playbook into both Germania and Britain. Britain was never full pacified and required a large occupation force to keep the province under control. After the defeat of Varus during the reign of Augustus, I think Roman l…

Idk... Lots of conquests were hard, but time did them. Then they put down rebellions as necessary. I think the difference was that there was no way for time to "win" as they we used to. No palace to install governors in. No temple to place Roman statues in. How do twin? What do you win when you win? Rome wasn't after a tax base or plantations for cash crops. They were after a tax base. Most of their empire consisted…

This is not written in English. Maybe AI?

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#247

Post by mcguire »

nickelcitymario wrote: post #192
manv1 wrote: post #132

That's not true, as evidenced by many, many empires, past and present (Spanish, British, Roman, American) that spanned more than a month of travel. What they're trying to say is that the span of control is limited by the ability to project power/information to the extremities of the empire. That makes sense, but the way they measure the limits is wrong. The way the empires get around this problem is by putting people…

Empires that expand beyond the 30 day travel limit tend to fizzle out and crumble. Today, of course, we travel the whole planet roughly 30 times in that time frame. So it's not a limit on Earth anymore. But it was definitely a problem for all previous empires. The ones you listed prove the point. They all crumbled when they expanded too far. The reason is kinda obvious: If it takes 30 days to travel, it takes 60 days…

Can I introduce you to the British Empire, pre-steamships: https://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/sailingtimes.htm

Or in 1914: https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter1/the-setting... (post-steamships)

The Spanish Empire was probably worse at its height.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#249

Post by [deleted] »

mardifoufs wrote: post #148
jameshart wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So… empires can’t retain territory over a month away from its capital, unless it’s populated by people loyal to the empire? Isn’t the point of the month rule that it’s hard to maintain a loyal population at that distance? So this amounts to saying ‘well the rule doesn’t apply to Canada because the rule doesn’t account for Canada’. Right. So it’s a bit of a rubbish rule then?

I agree that the rule is basically worthless, but my point was more that Canada had an exceptionally loyal population, and disproportionately so compared to what we coule expect from a "normal distribution"! It can, in part, explain the rift between the US and Canada :)

[deleted]

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#250

Post by brians »

tablespoon wrote: post #213
tgv wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But for future interplanetary colonization, the rule would become one light month. Not very far. But imagine any form of communication taking years to bounce back and forth. That could not be centrally governed. It might not just be travel time, but it probably does correlate.

> But for future interplanetary colonization, the rule would become one light month. Not very far. But imagine any form of communication taking years to bounce back and forth. That could not be centrally governed. It might not just be travel time, but it probably does correlate. The rule seems too simplistic. What's so special about 1 month? Is the significant value time to communicate, time to move military forces,…

Well, yes. There are plenty of takes on this. The "Traveller" RPG has a nice one: distributed feudal confederation. There's a nominal emperor, but it's hugely important that he never do almost anything, because "his" empire is a lifetime across.

Nearly the only law is that you don't impede the mail system, and that you pay a small tax to support the fleet that will hammer you into the ground if you impede the mail.

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