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Why was Roman concrete so durable?

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Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#31
post #3

Now onward to replacing the roads and bridges on freeways and highways with these new concrete.

cobblestones for the roads

for slow neighborhood roads I see no reason why brick isn't used more often. my hometown had brick roads everywhere and once every 3-5 years a few bricks would get replaced here and there. in the 1990s I'd look around and see a lot of the bricks on those roads that were made in the 1930s, and there were probably older bricks to be found if I'd looked harder.

the rough ride kept speeding down a lot more than the police could, because I watched people scream through my neighborhood all the time after they paved over the bricks.

plowing snow is harder on brick roads, but it isn't so hard that it is an unsolvable problem.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#32

Chemistry might be important, but we don't necessarily need that deep of an analysis. Romans didn't mind over-engineering with massive, inefficient structures. They didn't worry about complex/thin shapes, or any tensile elements. No rebar, no "piping" cement, etc. And they could put up with extremely long cure times. The end result is very, very dense concrete. We could probably recreate the durability of their concr…

Interestingly, the article founds out that their concrete cured quickly.

Anyway, no, our usual concrete completely breaks down in a few centuries. No matter how it's structured, it does not match the durability of that concrete without ongoing maintenance.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#33
post #13

very exciting! and I imagine there will be follow-on work delivering even greater results. There's also an interesting finance project here, to integrate the impact of this material into projects budgets, so that designers and investors can justify this material over cheaper alternatives. In particular, different construction projects have very different expected lifespans.

I wonder if it could have relevance for nuclear waste installations.

[dead]

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#34
post #3

Now onward to replacing the roads and bridges on freeways and highways with these new concrete.

Only some bridge designs can use un-reinforced concrete. Many (most?) modern bridges need reinforced concrete to allow the concrete to bear tensile loads. Reinforcing concrete introduces new ways that concrete can degrade such as rusting of the reinforcing elements. I'm not really sure Roman concrete would be much help here.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#35
post #3

Now onward to replacing the roads and bridges on freeways and highways with these new concrete.

The quick cure may be very useful for most construction. And the self-healing may be better enough for use on pavement.

But most bridges and highways are quite demanding and can't simply adopt a new concrete chemistry based on an improvement in a single dimension.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#36
post #23
post #3

Now onward to replacing the roads and bridges on freeways and highways with these new concrete.

Modern roads are designed to take serious abuse. 50 years of load cycling 20 ton semi at highway speeds causes mechanical damage which Roman concrete wouldn’t be effective in preventing. In ancient sites you can sometimes see the walls in high traffic areas have gotten smoothed and indented from hundreds of years worth of people gently dragging their fingertips across the surface as they walk by, tires are less genti…

A fun exercise is to calcualte the cost of some road in a neighboorhood, and compare that to the total collected property tax of all the homes along that road.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, the original poster went on a complete tangent without addressing the topic of the article at all. So my vote is for the person who pointed this out as he's most likely right in his deduction.

I don't think there is any requirement to read an article - that's implicit in the guideline that you don't comment on whether a poster read the original article. I would say 75-80% of the time I read the comments first, and probably close to 25% of the time I never read the posted article. Also - I found that comment regarding modern concrete, and the pointer to PracticalEngineering to be, by far, the most interesti…

That link is 'old news'.

What the poster of that link effectively said is that I know all there is about this topic, then post an 'interesting' link as his source, without realising that the current topic is new development not covered by it.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#38

Disappointed that this article didn't at least give a "tip of the hat" to the dogged research done by Dr. Marie Jackson, et.al., over her career at multiple universities. Here is an excellent read on this subject from 2013: https://cedar.wwu.edu/geology_facpubs/75/

Says a lot doesn't it.

Marie Jackson makes it into the citations twelve times.

Otherwise not mentioned by name.

Academia:

You thought capitalists were greedy for mere money? Come meet academics.

Re: Why was Roman concrete so durable?

#39

the article talks about evidence which has always been present in evaluations of Roman concrete which was "disregarded as merely evidence of sloppy mixing practices, or poor-quality raw materials," and this kind of thing REALLY infuriates me, as a layman. if you don't know how to make Roman concrete, don't assume anything about what you see in Roman concrete while you're trying to figure out how it was made. The mode…

From the study:

> In addition to the features described above, aggregate-scale relict lime clasts, also referred to as remnant lime or lime lumps, are a ubiquitous and conspicuous feature of both architectural and maritime Roman concretes. The presence of these distinctive bright white features has been previously attributed to several scenarios including incomplete or over-burning during the calcining of lime (20), carbonation before concrete preparation (30), incomplete dissolution during setting (12), or insufficient mixing of the mortar (14).

20: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00088...

30: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1475-4754....

12: https://www.amazon.com/Building-Eternity-Technology-Concrete...

14: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-roman-arc...

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