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How transportation technologies shaped empires

unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com

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Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#201

Post by newsclues »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #182
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word. You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty. Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

Just because some public school graduates go on to become dishonest politicians, does not mean that the school itself isn't there to educate and select honest administrators of the state/etc.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#202

Post by ssnistfajen »

notch656c wrote: post #155
manv1 wrote: post #132

That's not true, as evidenced by many, many empires, past and present (Spanish, British, Roman, American) that spanned more than a month of travel. What they're trying to say is that the span of control is limited by the ability to project power/information to the extremities of the empire. That makes sense, but the way they measure the limits is wrong. The way the empires get around this problem is by putting people…

>centralized decision making Which bodes poorly for increasing federal power in the US.

Hello? This is year 2023, not 1542. Communication happens at the speed of light and the only bottleneck is the human processing said communication. Obsessively devolving power to nesting lower levels of decision making bodies is just about the worst thing to do when technology has increasingly enabled organizations that are slim at the top to effectively manage complex systems at scale instead.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#203

Post by jimmytidey »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #182
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word. You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty. Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

The system doesn't work anymore. I don't think There is a country-specific elite culture now.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#204

Post by mymythisisthis »

cs702 wrote: post #3

The logic seems sound to me, with a few obvious caveats: * The number of samples is small. There aren't a lot of empires throughout history. * The definition of "empire" is somewhat subjective, because empire sizes exhibit a Zipf distribution, and the cutoff is arbitrary. * Surely there have been other factors at play besides time to travel from the capital. One implication is that empires that span the globe are muc…

It's really about trading routes. Today different regions of the world specialize in different industries. You get competition between people vying in the same industry and between trading partners. Communication really doesn't help when it comes to corporate/national power struggles. This is also why so many 'brother' countries tend to fight; Ukraine and Russia, Yeman and Saudi Arabia, Eritrea and Ethiopia.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#205

Post by scotty79 »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #182
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word. You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty. Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

You can't give word to the public. It simply doesn't count. But you can give word to people that made the public vote for you and that's rarely broken.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#206

Post by notch656c »

ssnistfajen wrote: post #202
notch656c wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>centralized decision making Which bodes poorly for increasing federal power in the US.

Hello? This is year 2023, not 1542. Communication happens at the speed of light and the only bottleneck is the human processing said communication. Obsessively devolving power to nesting lower levels of decision making bodies is just about the worst thing to do when technology has increasingly enabled organizations that are slim at the top to effectively manage complex systems at scale instead.

Can you explain why more local decision making must be the worst thing to do?

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#207

Post by [deleted] »

nickelcitymario wrote: post #192
manv1 wrote: post #132

That's not true, as evidenced by many, many empires, past and present (Spanish, British, Roman, American) that spanned more than a month of travel. What they're trying to say is that the span of control is limited by the ability to project power/information to the extremities of the empire. That makes sense, but the way they measure the limits is wrong. The way the empires get around this problem is by putting people…

Empires that expand beyond the 30 day travel limit tend to fizzle out and crumble. Today, of course, we travel the whole planet roughly 30 times in that time frame. So it's not a limit on Earth anymore. But it was definitely a problem for all previous empires. The ones you listed prove the point. They all crumbled when they expanded too far. The reason is kinda obvious: If it takes 30 days to travel, it takes 60 days…

[deleted]

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#208

Post by im3w1l »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #182
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word. You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty. Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

There is lack of integrity and then there is lack of integrity. Like imagine a minister only hiring relatives, embezzling billions, taking bribes, extorting for bribes, selling information and influence to foreign adversaries. Imagine people that don't even pretend to care about their duties, to the point that are indifferent to their people starving (what's it to me, if they riot we can always shoot em dead?).

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#209

Post by shagie »

shagie wrote: post #140
FredPret wrote: post #116

So… the moon, or even Venus?

Not sure Venus is within 1 month travel time. Granted this is with Apollo era technology... but we're still talking Saturn V https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Venus_flyby > The proposed mission would have used a Saturn V to send three astronauts on a flight past Venus, which would have lasted approximately one year. > ... > Phase C would be the actual manned flyby, using a Block IV CSM and an updated version of th…

The Venus missions...

One way rendezvous - 80 days is the minimal - https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/traj_browser.php?NEAs=on&NE...

If you're just doing a flyby and letting the ship then get lost, it can get down to 48 days https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/traj_browser.php?NEAs=on&NE...

The one way flyby is not likely one that would be good for human travelers as you aren't really stopping (or even slowing down enough to get captured).

The shortest round trips are just over a year long. https://trajbrowser.arc.nasa.gov/traj_browser.php?NEAs=on&NE...

The trip there is only 90 days, but the return leg is one of the least optimal options with a 280 day "climb back out" trip. You could do a 96 day there, and 80 day back, but to get the right orbital arrangement it then means that you'd need to stay at Venus for 1.3 years.

It is a neat thing to play with and see what options exist.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#210

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

jameshart wrote: post #137
macspoofing wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point was they couldn't hold the Canadian colony. Britain didn't give home-rule to Canada because of their good-will. American belligerence towards European presence in the New World, and their rise as a major military and economic power, made holding Canada practically impossible by the mid 1800s (for example, it was untannable for Britain to maintain a large military presence in Canada anymore). Britain fully e…

But the article literally argues that the British loss of the American colonies in 1776 is an example of how an empire can’t retain territory at a month’s remove. To which the existence of British colonies in Canada after 1776 is kind of a direct rejoinder, right? The eventual loss of those colonies is irrelevant to the point that you can’t explain the American revolution as being an inevitable consequence of remoten…

An empire can't retain hostile and unpacified territory beyond a certain limit - which may be set by time, communications, access to local resources and imported logistics, other factors, and all of the above.

If the territory is fully pacified with no significant resistance and/or it's run by dedicated loyalists with plentiful local resources the limit doesn't apply.

Basically an empire can only retain territory against an active threat or resistance within certain limits. If there is no active threat, or the threat is too minor to be a concern, the territory can be considered stable and fully colonised.

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