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How transportation technologies shaped empires

unchartedterritories.tomaspueyo.com

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Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#181

Post by ldh0011 »

macspoofing wrote: post #171
meatyloafy wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were killed by what the settlers brought with them. No, it was not deliberate (#), but nevertheless, their arrival is what killed most of the natives. (#) Obviously the settlers would have preferred to keep the natives alive since then they would not have needed to ship vast quantities of Africans across the ocean to enslave, but could have just done that with the locals.

>They were killed by what the settlers brought with them. No, it was not deliberate (#), but nevertheless, their arrival is what killed most of the natives. That's all I meant to clarify. You'd be surprised how many people today actually think that the native population was wiped out through deliberate and intentional action. Your wording made it seem you believed that as well, but that seemed to not be the case. >Ob…

It may not be the case that deliberate and intentional actions alone could have wiped out the natives but it seems pretty clear that there were a lot of deliberate and intentional actions both to kill them and take their land (Trail of Tears, Spanish conquests in South America). Those actions just wouldn't have been as successful without the diseases.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#182

Post by kwhitefoot »

jimmytidey wrote: post #164
manv1 wrote: post #132

That's not true, as evidenced by many, many empires, past and present (Spanish, British, Roman, American) that spanned more than a month of travel. What they're trying to say is that the span of control is limited by the ability to project power/information to the extremities of the empire. That makes sense, but the way they measure the limits is wrong. The way the empires get around this problem is by putting people…

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word.

You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty.

Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#184

Post by ldh0011 »

lantry wrote: post #152
nindalf wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you mention some books?

It's a big part of "the word for world is forest". A colony on one planet has essentially become self governing, until one day a ship delivers an instantaneous communication device, at which point the planet is back under imperial control. There's more to the story than that ofc There's also "The Dispossessed", where an anarchist movement travels to a distant planet in order to set up their own government.

> anarchist movement > set up their own government

I'm pretty sure I get what you mean but I found that funny.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#185

Post by notch656c »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #182
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word. You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty. Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

I think they meant trustworthy to superiors and possibly peers. British populace are the subjects of their politicians, and thus no trust need be proffered.

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#186

Post by btilly »

vondur wrote: post #133
dalbasal wrote: post #109

I feel like there's some cherry picking going on. I mean, issues with germanic tribes and inland conquests did play a role but... what about upper egypt, paetrea, britannia, etc. The edge of the empire was the edge of the empire... with frontier problems. Why did germania fail, but not those other ones. I mean size is an issue. Travel & messaging are issues. Empires are very much defined by these things, etc. I just…

Barbarism is certainly a factor in the Roman expansion into Germania, but if you look at how the Romans were able to colonize Gaul completely. I think originally they thought they could follow the same playbook into both Germania and Britain. Britain was never full pacified and required a large occupation force to keep the province under control. After the defeat of Varus during the reign of Augustus, I think Roman l…

"Pacified" is a bloodless word to hide a bloody reality.

According to Julius Caesar's own figures, when he conquered Gaul he killed roughly a third, enslaved a third, and left the last third under Roman rule. Thus did the future dictator create the power base with which he overthrew the Republic. (Though it took his nephew Octavian, better known as Augustus, to make that stick.)

Even in modern times, autocrats seek to glorify their power with titles that derive from his name. Titles like "king", "kaiser" and "tsar".

Calgacus, as quoted by Tacitus, purportedly said of the Roman Empire, "They make a desert, and call it peace." The authenticity of the quote is questioned, but the description is historical fact. And so I prefer calling a spade a spade, and replacing "pacification" with the more accurate", "conquest, genocide and oppression".

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#187

Post by ClumsyPilot »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #182
jimmytidey wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Drunk the cool aid..." In the UK case I've heard the idea that the Publc School system emerged for exactly this reason. ('Public' schools being the most elite schools in the UK). A relatively small number of schools shaped a class of people who all thought in exactly the same way, so they would behave predictably even when far away and in a new context. Public schools, are not coincidentally noted for a focus on 'pl…

> Not to mention never breaking your word. You surely jest. A substantial proportion of British politicians, on the right mostly, were educated at public schools. They don't all have a shining record when it comes to integrity and honesty. Twenty one (I think) of Britain's prime ministers went to Eton including Johnson and Cameron. Are we to believe that those two scoundrels are exceptions?

Sometimes its i.protant to understand the culture correctly- perhaps the institution has degraded now. Or perhaps your word only matters if it was goben to an equal, and Joe the public doesn't count? I dont know

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#188

Post by UncleMeat »

manv1 wrote: post #132

That's not true, as evidenced by many, many empires, past and present (Spanish, British, Roman, American) that spanned more than a month of travel. What they're trying to say is that the span of control is limited by the ability to project power/information to the extremities of the empire. That makes sense, but the way they measure the limits is wrong. The way the empires get around this problem is by putting people…

History of Empire, History of Travel Technology, and History of Communications Technology are huuuuge fields with tons of professionals working today. I'm a little concerned about huge claims being made about empire by a Stanford MBA and a community of people mostly experienced in software and tech.

The historians would love for you to read their books! AHA is literally happening right now! Go to bars in Philly and talk to them!

Re: How transportation technologies shaped empires

#190

Post by kcb »

sbaiddn wrote: post #102
amelius wrote: post #67

Human travel? Or information travel?

That's a fascinating question. I guess the answer is both. Fast info gives you extra time since you don't suffer the latency to send the shock troops.

I think it’s further than that. If the drones, satellites and if necessary the humans with guns that get their paycheck wired from earth are already prepositioned then the latency becomes minutes.
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