Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

gothamist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 579 posts

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#561

Post by r00fus »

jcrawfordor wrote: post #392
RC_ITR wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you believe that every house requires power lines to be run to it too? It only seems like a daunting problem on roads because we don't already do it.

A much bigger problem than the lines are the switches. Switching of trolley buses at intersections is not really all that well solved of a problem as is, and the solutions available right now (up to the most sophisticated based on radio signaling) are a primary failure point, maintenance intensive, and expensive and complex enough that the cost of a four-way intersection set up for four-way electric travel is going t…

All this can be mitigated with a small amount of battery in the vehicle. Essentially each streetcar is a BEV with battery only to go a few miles but is essentially recharged while on street power (with software to keep SoC in the 20-90% band).

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#562

Post by anakaine »

RhysU wrote: post #447
cogman10 wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fire trucks Would be excellent EVs. They have super low millage and you'd not have to worry about things like stagnant fuel. > ambulances Generally low mileage vehicles, no idea why you'd not be able to use them as EVs. > tow trucks Perhaps the only one that would be bad given the amount of power required to tow a vehicle. > power company trucks Excellent option for EVs because they almost never haul equipment and…

Are you serious?! If my town loses power for two weeks I want fire trucks, ambulances, tow trucks, and especially power company trucks to work! Civic infrastructure should anticipate tail events. > How do you pump fuel if the grid is down? Gravity. Siphons. Manual pumps. Etc. Real complicated stuff known since figuratively Roman times.

Ever heard of diesel-electric drive trains? The vehicles have electric motors at the wheels and a much smaller then usual internal combustion engine that is an onboard generator.

You can have both at once. This is what happens with some trains, frequently happens in mining, and happens in some large industries. It is what occurs with hybrid electric vehicles.

The latest round of electric vehicles are getting 80km (50 miles) off the battery. That sort of thing is find for most of the service vehicle types you listed, and meets the requirements for greening a fleet and having alternative power options.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#563

Post by anakaine »

spott wrote: post #499
XorNot wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gravity. Siphons. Manual pumps. Etc. Real complicated stuff known since figuratively Roman times. This is one of those statements that sounds reasonable when its you with your consumer-grade whatever, and has absolutely no relevance to large scale logistics and planning. Fuel in ground tanks when the black out starts is...fuel in the ground tanks which is going to stay there because no amount of human labor is gett…

Fuel in ground tanks can be pumped out by manually pumping enough to power a generator to power the regular pumps... which is pretty trivial to set up.

Fuel in ground tanks can be pumped out with a manual hand pump. It's not that hard and frequently used on remote property tanks.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#564

Post by cogman10 »

kennend3 wrote: post #555
bayindirh wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ambulances [are] Generally low mileage vehicles, no idea why you'd not be able to use them as EVs. Because they are neither low mileage and the medical equipment behind needs power. You never want your battery to go flat in an ambulance and lose the mobility and life support at the same time. Also, they're used the way EVs hate most. Accelerate and decelerate constantly while trying to plow through traffic in city…

> I wouldn't want an inextinguishable box of lithium near something hot like a fire. Would you? This. My brother is a captain for a fire department. I visited the hall many times with him and found the station design odd. He told me it is built that way because there have been cases of fire trucks being too close to major fires, and the truck catching fire back at the station. The station has "blast doors" that autom…

And how do they deal with the tank of explosive fluids inside fire trucks today?

Precautions around keeping a fuel tank from catching fire work the same for batteries. Better, because lithium batteries have an ignition temperature at 2000F and gasoline's is 500F and diesel at 410F.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#565

Post by bayindirh »

cogman10 wrote: post #564
kennend3 wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't want an inextinguishable box of lithium near something hot like a fire. Would you? This. My brother is a captain for a fire department. I visited the hall many times with him and found the station design odd. He told me it is built that way because there have been cases of fire trucks being too close to major fires, and the truck catching fire back at the station. The station has "blast doors" that autom…

And how do they deal with the tank of explosive fluids inside fire trucks today? Precautions around keeping a fuel tank from catching fire work the same for batteries. Better, because lithium batteries have an ignition temperature at 2000F and gasoline's is 500F and diesel at 410F.

Explosion proof, fire arresting, multi layered tanks, which are in use since forever (planes and other critical vehicles also use that technology).

Also, you can’t ignite fuel without a spark. A cigarette can’t light a tank of fuel, but an overheated battery can catch fire by itself.

Lastly, you can extinguish fuel fires, but you can’t extinguish metal fires.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#566

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

colechristensen wrote: post #560
dekhn wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you! This was my conclusion as well: there's an effect, it's small, and was probably much larger 30 years ago. I also only have the oil changed every 10K miles which horrifies my friends.

But seriously, change your oil more often. There’s some simple chemistry going on where the oil gets worse at being oil over time and you get extra engine wear, and if you’re not paying attention and burning oil your engine can get bricked in seconds. I only change my oil every 10k miles (or really 6-8k most often) but in an engine and with an oil specifically rated for such. Your jiffylube 5w30 (if that’s what you’r…

I think 6K or 7.5K miles is the typical recommendation for modern cars that use synthetic oil. I know my BRZ's manual recommended 7.5K unless I'm taking it to the race track.

10K is probably fine with full synthetic oil if you're driving conservatively.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#567

Post by spiznnx »

mabbo wrote: post #415
unregistereddev wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a bit confused by your numbers, and I suspect we may be mixing multiple units of measure (maybe due to different definitions of gallon?). The 2021 Prius Prime is rated at 53mpg highway. Let's assume that is optimistic and it gets 50mpg. Its fuel tank holds 11.4 gallons, but you don't want to run it dry - let's say 10 gallons are usable. That is a 500-mile (~800km) range after the battery is dead. At 75mph, that r…

I'm gonna to be blunt: after reading more reviews, I picked a very poor car to use as my example of a bad PHEV. Prius prime actually sounds like a pretty solid vehicle. The general complaint that I hear about other PHEVs is that car manufacturers publish the "combined highway/ city" rating, which is weighted heavily in favor of city driving- which is where a PHEV is incredible thanks to regenerative braking. But if y…

I really think you should test drive one. It doesn't have a huge battery and ice engine, it has a small battery and a small engine (at times frustratingly underpowered if out of battery). For short drives, the small battery saves you from hauling an extra 500 lbs of battery. For long drives a PHEV is still my preferred option over a BEV, because refueling every 300 miles is faster than recharging every 300 miles, and I'm not looking to have a spirited drive anyway.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#568

Post by mariodiana »

xsmasher wrote: post #190
mariodiana wrote: post #7

Anyone else remember learning about the "Five Year Plans" of the old Soviet Union?

What's the similarity? They're both "plans?"

Essentially, yes—they're both examples of centralized planning, where the conceit of politicians drives complex economic systems arbitrarily, resulting in chaos.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#569

Post by mariodiana »

whataboutismst wrote: post #24
mariodiana wrote: post #7

Anyone else remember learning about the "Five Year Plans" of the old Soviet Union?

Yes and, unfortunately, conversation around these issues always falls into the Communism vs. Capatalism line of debate rather than ossification of systems consolidation of power - the far more impactful topic.

I understand "ossification of systems consolidation of power" as centralized planning, which is socialism, as opposed to laissez-faire capitalism. But, I'm guessing you mean something else. What do you mean?

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#570

Post by kennend3 »

cogman10 wrote: post #564
kennend3 wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn't want an inextinguishable box of lithium near something hot like a fire. Would you? This. My brother is a captain for a fire department. I visited the hall many times with him and found the station design odd. He told me it is built that way because there have been cases of fire trucks being too close to major fires, and the truck catching fire back at the station. The station has "blast doors" that autom…

And how do they deal with the tank of explosive fluids inside fire trucks today? Precautions around keeping a fuel tank from catching fire work the same for batteries. Better, because lithium batteries have an ignition temperature at 2000F and gasoline's is 500F and diesel at 410F.

This is a shockingly high amount of FUD but little facts.

Lets start at the top shall we?

Diesel doesn't "burn" like gasoline does.

"If you toss a lit match into a puddle of diesel fuel, it'll go out."

You need to atomize it first, or heat it up a lot so it starts to "flash" or it wont "burn".

So, a firetruck with a large diesel tank is fairly safe because it takes a LOT to get it to start burning. At first all the heat is simply absorbed by the diesel slowing warming it up until it reaches its flash point.

Next, your temperatures are beyond MESSED UP.

Ignition temperature for a lithium battery is just 121 C

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep07788#:~:text=The%20crit....

The Auto-ignition temperature of pure lithium is just 179°C

https://inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0710.htm

https://webwiser.nlm.nih.gov/substance?substanceId=284&ident...

I have no idea where you get 2,000F (1,093C) from but this is so wrong it is embarrassing. This temperature is almost to the point Iron catches fire:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoignition_temperature

Batteries are also prone to shorts and spontaneous fires which may explain stories like this : https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/us-news/tesla-model...

There is also the "fun" reaction between Lithium and water, which firefighters often use on fires...

Post reply on HN