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GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

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Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#101
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A number of points in Google's favor: they are not passing off Google books content as their own, they limit your access to a small fraction of the offering. The thing that surprised me about that ruling is that it was deemed final without a chance of an appeal.

As well, Google is, because of these things, somewhat acting as a library. An libraries are very special entities.

Not really. Google won because Google Books was not actually a new concept; someone else had already built a book search engine the same way Google did, also got sued by the Authors Guild, and also prevailed. The only thing different about Google Books was that it'd give you two pages worth of excerpt out of the book. So it was very easy for a court to extend the fair use logic that they had already weaved into the law.

I still think "training is fair use" still has a leg to stand on, though. But it doesn't save GitHub Copilot because they're not merely training a model; they're selling access to its outputs and telling people they have "full commercial rights" to its outputs (i.e. sublicensing). Fair use is not transitive; if I make 100 Google Books searches to get all the pages out of a book, I don't suddenly own the book. There is no "copyright laundry" here.

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#102
I don’t understand the author’s position in this article. It spends a long time talking about details of the licenses, but I can’t see any way the suit will actually be about licenses, because if it’s about licenses then it seems patently obvious to me that GitHub will lose very quickly, because they have undoubtedly violated the terms of the licenses.

As I see it, the only leg GitHub can possibly stand on is the “fair use” exemption of copyright law—that the license is irrelevant, because they weren’t using it under that license.

So then you get to the last paragraph of the article, and the “fair use” claim is finally mentioned—as something the plaintiffs seem to be seeking to avoid bringing into it because that would make things messy. But… GitHub’s defence must be “fair use”, I can see no other response. Yes, the plaintiffs “chose to focus on something that is beyond factual dispute”, but how are GitHub ever going to do anything other than bring fair use into it? So I don’t see how they could expect it to “still provide the same damages” without bringing fair use into it. (And I can’t imagine GitHub will settle for anything other that total vindication here—even settlement would doom Copilot.)

Returning to the title: I cannot imagine any way that We May Learn Something About Creative Commons Licensing from this suit. About the interactions between copyright law and machine learning, maybe. But about CC-*, GPL, Apache-2.0, MIT, whatever? Nah, there’s nothing interesting about them in the suit, because if they were involved, it’d be cut and dried.

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#103
post #3

Excellent. GitHub is in my opinion crossing a whole pile of lines here that should not have been crossed without the authors explicit permission, regardless of the utility of the tool they built. Copyright is not something that can be signed over by a terms-of-use change of a hosting provider, the expectation is that your host does not automatically claim the rights to anything that you store there. Such projects sho…

> Copyright is not something that can be signed over by a terms-of-use change of a hosting provider Agreeing to GitHub's terms doesn't try to assign copyright over your code, it grabs licence to use your code however they see fit which is¹ legally quite different. Of course the real fun comes if someone agrees to their terms then uploads some of my code which they have to right to assign the licence to GitHub for. Wh…

It seems a lot of this stems from how the DMCA does not require that these hosting providers actually check for code ownership at submission, or maybe just how they don't have an explicit checkbox for "I affirm that I can license this code to GitHub" every time someone is uploading code.

If it is shown that the license in the TOS is valid, the legal question might boil down to "is the TOS License broad enough to where nobody thought that it allowed their code to be used in for-profit ML models?"

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#104
post #53

Copyright covers expression, but not the ideas themselves. So it should be ok to mine ideas from projects, open or not, as long as the model doesn't reproduce expression. And even expression can be copied if it is small enough, trivial, public knowledge, the only obvious way to do something or an API call. If you want idea protection you need to look at patents.

Google couldn't get this argument to fly for software APIs-are-not-copyrightable at SCOTUS. And that was for an argument where pretty much every computer person except Oracle agreed that Google was right. Arguing that AI is mining ideas and not expressions is going to be a lot less successful when you've got a large pool of expert witnesses who are going to be able and willing to say that AI is only capable of mimick…

AI is not just that. That's a myth.

Yes, when you train on a human generated corpus you're going to get an interpolative AI. But when you train on a dataset generated by AI, you can surpass human level.

AlphaZero started, as the name says, from zero. No examples of how we play the game. In just three days of self-play it surpassed the best human. How was that possible? We got a 2000 year head start, larger brains, and many players, not just one model. AlphaZero did it by creating its own training data.

Here is an example of using code language models for this kind of dataset-creation by play.

> Evolution through Large Models

https://arxiv.org/abs/2206.08896

By the way, GPT-3 and chatGPT are not simple interpolative language models. They have also been trained on many tasks, problems, and codes, which is the kind of data that will awaken the skills of the model to a whole new level. What I am saying is that we can auto-generate more problem data and increase their skills.

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#105

It will be a real shame if the fantastic achievement of OpenAI with copilot etc is smothered by ego. Innovation in code should be heralded but if in the majority of cases the coder using Copilot and similar tools is just saving time on bog standard functions they could write themselves, it's difficult to understand why that needs to be attributed.

[flagged]

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#106
post #77

Steve Ballmer once called Linux and the GPL License a cancer because to copy a portion of code from a copyleft project, minimal as it may be, would make the whole project require a copyleft license. If Github Co-Pilot includes GPL code then produced works should have GPL too, right? It is known that it produces verbatim copies of sections of code, so the 'derivative' explanation doesn't hold water. Alternatives may b…

> It is known that it produces verbatim copies of sections of code This happens only rarely, like under 1% of the time. It happens mostly for well replicated code and not so much for code that only appears once. It can be filtered out with search and bloom filters of ngram hashes. But the prompter can goad the model into copyright infringement by quoting the start of a copyrighted text verbatim, and asking for comple…

> I don't see regurgitation as a long term problem, it's just waiting for attention, probably wasn't top priority

The fact that Microsoft is wary of providing it with things like the Windows source code says all we need to know about how much it can be trusted.

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#107

I’m surprised it’s taken this long to see something like this on HN. Maybe something like this could be a propellant for legitimate copyright reform.

Well I clearly saw this miles away. [0] [1]

Effectively you can't even use the code since it has trampled on licenses which are incompatible with each other. But it is more of a problem for Copilot.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27725322

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27772446

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#108
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A number of points in Google's favor: they are not passing off Google books content as their own, they limit your access to a small fraction of the offering. The thing that surprised me about that ruling is that it was deemed final without a chance of an appeal.

As well, Google is, because of these things, somewhat acting as a library. An libraries are very special entities.

And Google kept the copyright notices and attributions; probably not super relevant, but it's a difference between the two cases.

I mean in essence Github is a library; they did have a license to a point to do with the code as they pleased, but they then started to create a derivative work in the form of an AI, without correctly crediting the source materials.

I mean I think they made a gamble on it; as far as I'm aware, AI training sets were yet unchallenged in a court of law, so legally not fully defined yet. These lawsuits - and the ones (if any) aimed at the image generators, using CC artwork from e.g. artstation - will lay the legal groundwork for future AI / ML development.

Re: GitHub is sued, and we may learn something about Creative Commons licensing

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "fine" is 9 billion dollars.

Against a company which makes 6-7x that in yearly profits, that's still not an effective deterrent.

1/6th or 1/7th of profits is significant. 9 million dollars could be ignored by a company making 54,000 or 63,000 million dollars, but 9,000 million is a lot.
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