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Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

economist.com

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Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#451

Post by md_ »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #441
md_ wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an odd definition for "tech company." Is your point, though, that that data are valuable? If so, what for?

I feel like I am really at a loss to explain this .. if someone at HN doesny understand why data is valuable, I can add nothing to the discussion. My day job is farming a small plot of land.

This wasn't me not understanding why it might be valuable. This was me asking you to explain what makes you think this is valuable, how valuable you think it is, and why you think it's a unique advantage to Tesla.

One way to look at this would be the ARPU from data-intensive services like Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc. Typical orders of magnitude here is dozens of dollars per year per user; I think Amazon shopping is closer to $100 if I remember right.

I dimly recall some idiotic tech blog claiming that in the future, cars would be free because of the value of ad targeting based off of collected car data, which is hilarious:

- Cars cost three orders of magnitude more than any reasonable revenue per user from such ads

- Cost of a car per year (depreciation + maintenance) is, what, 2 orders of magnitude higher than that?

- There are cheaper ways to get that data, like...free smartphones? Yet nobody does that.

"Data is the new oil" sounds good, but it leaves out a lot of important details, like "how do you monetize that data" and "how much do you make for it?" If monetization is ads, the answer is "not much."

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#452

Post by mbesto »

bbbbb5 wrote: post #413
mbesto wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used both Tesla and Honda's Carplay for ~2 years now. I really enjoy Carplay (and the phone integration is a huge plus), but a few things: - re: waze - huh? Google Maps is just fine. The differences are such a personal preference that they are moot. - The touch controls on Carplay are not great. Try pinching and zooming on Google Maps in Carplay and its awful. (note - I do think Tesla misses the boat on having m…

>- re: waze - huh? Google Maps is just fine. The differences are such a personal preference that they are moot. Waze tells you where cameras and cops are, Google Maps usually does not. >- The touch controls on Carplay are not great. Try pinching and zooming on Google Maps in Carplay and its awful. (note - I do think Tesla misses the boat on having more physical controls as they almost rely entirely on touch...which i…

> Waze tells you where cameras and cops are, Google Maps usually does not.

Cameras are only really relevant in Europe. We don't really have these in the US. I do get the cops angle - google maps doesn't really do this.

> I don't think I've ever needed to do this

Tesla uses google maps under the hood and its auto adjustments are incredible (as good as Waze). However, every once in an awhile you want to "look ahead" and the Carplay simply sucks for this feature.

> Pretty sure the pricing starts at €94,540

It literally says in the description:

PRICE OF THE MODEL IN THE VIDEO: 185.269 EUR

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#453

Post by myko »

LarryMullins wrote: post #300
zzzeek wrote: post #204

great article, but: "And the natural Tesla-owners among the wealthy progressive set are less prepared to overlook Mr Musk’s libertarian antics at Twitter" banning journalists and parodies he doesnt like == libertarian, got it!

Real libertarianism hasn't been tried.

The closest attempt failed miserably: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/06/30/colorado-...

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#454

Post by darthrupert »

turbobooster wrote: post #6

What did Elon do to make Tesla earn so much money that the original founders couldnt do? Is it just about debt loans needed?

Marketing. He's a one man marketing department. Some might say that that's all he is, but apparently it goes a long way.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#455

Post by bbbbb5 »

mbesto wrote: post #452
bbbbb5 wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>- re: waze - huh? Google Maps is just fine. The differences are such a personal preference that they are moot. Waze tells you where cameras and cops are, Google Maps usually does not. >- The touch controls on Carplay are not great. Try pinching and zooming on Google Maps in Carplay and its awful. (note - I do think Tesla misses the boat on having more physical controls as they almost rely entirely on touch...which i…

> Waze tells you where cameras and cops are, Google Maps usually does not. Cameras are only really relevant in Europe. We don't really have these in the US. I do get the cops angle - google maps doesn't really do this. > I don't think I've ever needed to do this Tesla uses google maps under the hood and its auto adjustments are incredible (as good as Waze). However, every once in an awhile you want to "look ahead" an…

>Cameras are only really relevant in Europe. We don't really have these in the US. I do get the cops angle - google maps doesn't really do this.

Well yeah, in Europe we don't have cops on the roads. In the US you don't have cameras, but have cops everywhere. You still want Waze in either case, probably more so for the cops.

>PRICE OF THE MODEL IN THE VIDEO: 185.269 EUR

This has to be including local taxes, which in some EU countries can double the price of a car.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#456

Post by filoleg »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #411
filoleg wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need a one-off application for every streaming service, those are there in case you want to use them without phone at all. Bluetooth audio is a thing, and you can stream whatever audio you want from your phone to your car audio using that.

> You don't need a one-off application for every streaming service, those are there in case you want to use them without phone at all I agree. That's why it doesn't make sense that Tesla is approaching it as "bespoke or bust". > Bluetooth audio is a thing, and you can stream whatever audio you want from your phone to your car audio using that. Yes, but "streaming a single audio track (with low audio quality)" is pret…

> First of all, it's limited to audio--it doesn't help me stream HBO or Paramount or any other video service.

Tesla has apps for a bunch of video streaming services. And for those it doesn't have, you can just use the built-in web browser. It works just fine (assuming you are in a parked mode, they won't work while you are driving for obvious safety reasons).

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#457

Post by adolph »

thebooktocome wrote: post #322
adolph wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Minimalistic interiors > Is this something you see as a benefit? Yes. It's a distraction free operating environment. Tesla's aesthetic choices are semi-scandinavian/Ikea. Minimal doesn't have to be that style specifically. The early New Beetle did a passable job. The typical car is like MS Word with every ribbon open at once. A minimalist interior is focus mode.

The lack of tactile buttons increases distraction considerably. I cannot activate most controls on a Tesla without taking my eyes off the road. They also seemingly refuse to keep the GUI stable for more than three or four months at a time.

I agree. minimalistic design != "lack of tactile buttons"

Multi-touch capacitance with tuned solid state haptic feedback and fused OLED display technology with very thin tempered glass is a wonderful thing, especially considering how far it has gotten since 2007) but it has remained resounding and disappointingly flat.

While manufacturers are working with different display dimensions and gentle curves or even folds, I agree there is a need for topologically shaped glass to bring the tactile affordances of traditional buttons to software enhanced user interfaces. I'm not a display engineer but I suspect that different glass thicknesses result in poor visuals so we will have to wait for organic magneto-laser displays.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#458

Post by l33tman »

FireBeyond wrote: post #379
l33tman wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah well that they omit a windshield wiper stalk is also idiotic and furthermore outright dangerous. I've done overtakes next to trailers some times in heavy rain where in a second I had to hit the wiper stalk to max. Relying on their camera -based AI to do that (yes they skip on the cost of the industry standard IR sensor for rain detection) is crazy. A german guy actually died a few years back because he was searc…

I don't even get the AI/ML wipers. Like you say, IR (and I believe some, though a definite minority, even use electrical conductivity/resistance) auto wipers have been reliable[1] for nearly three decades now. Why do we need ML for wipers? Are we anticipating new types of rain that existing auto wipers won't recognize? [1] To those about to say "they're not reliable", I'm yet to find one that can't be tweaked with th…

My guess is that they already have the front-facing camera so someone suggested they can cut costs by removing the IR sensor and "just write some AI" for it. Likewise the stalk is a cost saving.

They also removed the ultrasonic parking sensors from October to use the cameras for it to save cost. Good luck for all who happen to back into stuff at night or into glass windows or something..

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#459

Post by throwaway894345 »

filoleg wrote: post #456
throwaway894345 wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't need a one-off application for every streaming service, those are there in case you want to use them without phone at all I agree. That's why it doesn't make sense that Tesla is approaching it as "bespoke or bust". > Bluetooth audio is a thing, and you can stream whatever audio you want from your phone to your car audio using that. Yes, but "streaming a single audio track (with low audio quality)" is pret…

> First of all, it's limited to audio--it doesn't help me stream HBO or Paramount or any other video service. Tesla has apps for a bunch of video streaming services. And for those it doesn't have, you can just use the built-in web browser. It works just fine (assuming you are in a parked mode, they won't work while you are driving for obvious safety reasons).

The built-in web browser is extremely slow and tedious to use (at least in my 2022 Model Y), but yes, it technically works.

Re: Investors conclude that Tesla is a carmaker, not a tech firm

#460

Post by jelliclesfarm »

md_ wrote: post #451
jelliclesfarm wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like I am really at a loss to explain this .. if someone at HN doesny understand why data is valuable, I can add nothing to the discussion. My day job is farming a small plot of land.

This wasn't me not understanding why it might be valuable. This was me asking you to explain what makes you think this is valuable, how valuable you think it is, and why you think it's a unique advantage to Tesla. One way to look at this would be the ARPU from data-intensive services like Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc. Typical orders of magnitude here is dozens of dollars per year per user; I think Amazon shopping is…

Well..I can give you another example. In agriculture, the data extracted from the field is more valuable than farm gate prices.

For example, you can generate weather data from a farm. That income doesn’t belong to the farmer but to the one who owns the land or the data.

Data has so much value addition. Grain doesn’t ..not for the farmer anyways. Income from value added data is taxable. Farm income isn’t.

We generally look at value from the pov of whether it can be taxed and whether it will generate employment which leads to more taxation. Money which creates value in a capitalistic economy is tied to employment and purchasing power.

Data can be reused again and again to create taxable goods. All food will become someone’s poop.

I am just making scribble points. But I am sure you can fill in the blanks.

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