What happened to supply & demand?
If there's more demand than supply, increase the price and the supply pool will increase as well.
The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
841–850 of 915 posts
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#842Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m an older millennial who went to a not great high school and an ok state university. Of all the people from high school still working dead end service jobs, I don’t know any with a college degree. Sure there are people who studied English who aren’t making tons of money, but they also aren’t stuck working at Walmart like some of the people who don’t have degrees are. An English degree isn’t enough to get you a $10…
Your sample size and personal experiences are small. I can easily contast your story with my own limited anecdote. I grew up in a poor dysfunctional family in a high school so bad it nearly was state mandated. I dropped out of university two years in. The rich kids in my class and many of my peers got degrees. Yet very few moved away and of those who did they all struggle to be more than entry level office workers or…
And my anecdote was in response to the OPs anecdote, which was refuting BLS statistics.
My anecdote is much closer to BLS statistics.
When you say they are all making double minimum wage at best, that’s less than the bottom decile for college graduates. Your not experience is not representative at all.
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#843Earlier quoted context omitted.
> First we were told that we needed the college degree for a job. Any degree would do. Something strange is happening here that I can't quite understand. Jokes about English majors asking if you want fries with that are way older than me and I first started college in 1999. Yes, I heard a persistent low rumbling of "go to college," but the idea that "any degree would do" is alien to me. Of course I knew that some maj…
> are way older than me and I first started college in 1999. I was told not to major in "underwater basketweaving" in 1983, or otherwise I'd be garbage man--as if that were not one of the most important jobs in a society! It's been the same class-warfare BS for coming up on half a century: demean low paying jobs at all costs for reasons I still don't understand.
> in 1983, or otherwise I'd be garbage man
In 1983, finishing high school in NYC, we were told to consider being garbage men because the starting pay was higher than most college graduates got!
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#844Earlier quoted context omitted.
If there's one thing that I've learned hanging out on /r/freelance, it's that most people are not cut out to be business owners.
Can you elaborate why?
A very significant number of freelancers think of themselves as employees. They struggle with "asking for raises," instead of telling their clients "this is my new rate." They are extremely depressed when a contract isn't renewed, or is terminated early "they fired me. Why?" They are dependent on a single client, let themselves form close relationships with that client's employees, have their working hours set for them, etc.
Going into freelancing, the first thing you should be thinking is "I am a business that employs one person: me."
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#845In contrast to most people here, I have actually worked outside of an office chair, for a short period of time, in a factory and also do woodworking as a hobby. The reason fewer people want to learn the trades is because it sucks. It's usually too hot or too cold, dirty (not just oil, I'm talking about spiders and bugs, nasty customer's homes and so on), loud and dusty, it's hard on your body (try standing for 8h str…
> low barrier of entry Low barrier of entry? For trades? I've always been under the impression that software engineering is one of the lowest barriers-of-entry jobs there is, while skilled trades are pretty difficult to get into. You can take web frontend dev bootcamp for a few weeks and probably land a job pretty quickly, if "any job at all" is the standard you're aiming for. Similarly, you can get licensed as a boo…
I've never personally seen a bootcamp graduate at my job. Everyone either has a STEM college degree that is definitely beyond the ability of the average tradesman, or has been self-taught since childhood age. I think that programming does require more problem solving skills than trades do (or bookkeeping) and the demographics reflect that. It also requires at least passable language skills to understand what you're supposed to program. Most of the tradesman in my country nowadays are foreigners who never learned the language properly. If the barrier to entry for programming really was lower than for the trades, why don't all the tradesman switch to programming, where they'd make much more money? The answer is that they can't, because they lacked the necessary education and grades to compete against other applicants for better paying white-collar apprenticeships/college in their youth and now lack the discipline or skills to self-teach.
> Meanwhile, the skilled trades frequently require apprenticeships of roundabout three years
What you conveniently forgot to mention is that they also start much earlier. An apprenticeship in the trades usually starts after 10th grade (in Germany) when other students seeking a college education still have a minimum of 5 years of schooling in front of them that pays jack shit, even costing you money. With an apprenticeship you start your earnings much earlier, which makes it appealing to students from poor families where the parents are unwilling to finance them any longer (requires less parental support = lower barrier of entry). My cousin who did an apprenticeship (white-collar job though) now owns a house, while I can barely afford a car.
> If you want to get into one of those, you better do it while you're young [...], because there's just no way you can afford it when you're a grown-up with grown-up responsibilities and financial burdens
That is definitely true, but applies all the same to bookkeeping (which also requires an apprenticeship in my country) and college education.
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#846Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can you elaborate why?
The self-employed plumber has to accept phone calls when they're in the middle of a job, has to do a whole day's work then spend their evenings lining up future work, has to manage their schedule a long way in advance, has to keep commitments even in the face of illness and family emergencies, has to go around giving quotes to people many of whom are just comparing prices, has to manage cashflow and deliveries, has t…
Very well said!
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#847Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's where all the jobs have been in the last five years in his area. His teams are also doing commercial wiring as well, but new builds dominate the work. And they are supposed to complete jobs fast - even if the work is simple doing it fast is not easy. And so what? "You can succeed if you go into trades... but make sure you don't end up in some of these widespread roles" is a very different narrative than what i…
> "You can succeed if you go into trades... but make sure you don't end up in some of these widespread roles" Everyone I know in the trades "put in their dues" with at least 10 years of working for someone else, doing the shit jobs, working outside in the rain, in the mud, in the heat, in crawlspaces, in attics, etc. The smart, driven ones learn all they can, advance, build relationships and reputation, and start the…
OK. So what you are saying here is that the trades are a bad job. You spend ten years getting treated like crap and then only succeed if you become a small business owner.
Imagine this for software engineers. "Yeah, SWEs get paid shit and have a bad working environment but some of you will become managers and get paid bank." That wouldn't exactly be a "wow software is an incredible field to be in" situation.
If people want to say "we need more tradespeople - going into the trades will be good for your career" then it better be the case that the actual laborers are getting decent pay.
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#848Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nah you've got it right and there are a shitload of studies that prove it: the most effective way for a human being to wreck their health is sitting on their ass all day.
Maybe a balance can be achieved. Someone can be a part time office worker, part time tradesman. This part-time aspect was one of the appealing aspects of ride-sharing apps when they first appeared. People with cars could have 9-5 jobs and before and after the job, exactly during rush hour, give a lift to a few people. Of course, they turned into the new taxi but controled by multinational corps and almost impossible…
In theory. But in practice, the tradesman hours would be so underpaid compared to SWE hours that I'd either want back into SWE full-time or to have those hours completely free of work as personal & family time. The opportunity costs here don't work out. Spending time away from my family for less money is not a good deal.
Health is the opportunity cost otherwise, but it's hard to price health. And I don't mean that it's priceless; the price is ambiguous - is my health worth less or more than what half my salary buys me?
For software engineers, this is a difficult question to answer. If I were working an entry-level job, my health would be more valuable to me. If I were at the peak of professional development (a figurehead at a massive company or someone whose work changes the world), my work would be more important. SWE work makes a lot of money, but somewhere in the range of where I value my health.
How much $ a year is your health worth to you? Not a rhetorical question, would be interesting to see some answers if anyone can come up with a figure.
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#849Earlier quoted context omitted.
It may feel better at the time but repetitive motions in most physical jobs will eventually catch up with your body. In an office job you can exercise on your own terms and without long term chronic pain.
I don't know, when I used to work on farms, the old guys were a lot healthier than most of the people I see in tech nowadays. Although, most of that work isn't unhealthily repetitive, like jack-hammering or something, so perhaps not a great example. But, use-it-or-lose-it is a real thing.
I worked on a hay farm for a few years, and I constantly had injuries to my back muscles. Other employees had constant knee pain and neck pain. Nobody that worked there looked healthy. I was always tired and hated going to work. I feel way healthier working in tech.
Re: The skilled trades haven't caught as a career choice with Gen Z
#850Earlier quoted context omitted.
Maybe a balance can be achieved. Someone can be a part time office worker, part time tradesman. This part-time aspect was one of the appealing aspects of ride-sharing apps when they first appeared. People with cars could have 9-5 jobs and before and after the job, exactly during rush hour, give a lift to a few people. Of course, they turned into the new taxi but controled by multinational corps and almost impossible…
In theory. But in practice, the tradesman hours would be so underpaid compared to SWE hours that I'd either want back into SWE full-time or to have those hours completely free of work as personal & family time. The opportunity costs here don't work out. Spending time away from my family for less money is not a good deal. Health is the opportunity cost otherwise, but it's hard to price health. And I don't mean that it…
You are correct and that is why what I suggested doesn't broadly happen. There is value in specialization. Yet we can't help but ponder whether there might be a better way and what it might involve.