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Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

cdoyle.me

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Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#211

Post by tanseydavid »

philwelch wrote: post #190
mpweiher wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Susan Fowler, an engineer at Uber I always had a problem with that case: so you start to work for one of the most unethical companies out there, a company whose business model is to circumvent regulations, a company that built software whose sole purpose was to deceive auditors. And then you are shocked , shocked , that there is gambling^W unethical behavior going on?

Circumventing corrupt and anti-competitive regulations is not in any way morally equivalent to sexual harassment.

It is if the perpetrator can "circumvent" the consequences.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#212

Post by poszlem »

afarrell wrote: post #55
epicureanideal wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> HR represents the company. Where your goals and the company's aligns HR very often does not even work in the interests of the company. Instead, it works in the interest of the HR employees' own political beliefs, which they then cloak in the language of doing what's right for the company, and connect no matter how loosely to any laws, regulations, etc. that they can use to justify imposing the beliefs they wanted t…

Yep. And Engineers often have pet projects. Marketing often has a slightly odd artistic vision for something. People are gonna be people.

Pretty true. But that kind of like saying "politicians are going to take bribes, they are just people".

There is the reason why some jobs are treated uniquely, and HR should be one of those jobs, as they have a disproportional amount of power and influence over other people's ability to find employment.

In some countries those special professions are even marked as such in law, for example in Poland there exist a notion of a "public trust profession": "a profession that is a profession of high social importance, requiring appropriate qualifications not only professional and health, but also characterological, i.e. moral and ethical"

I am not particularly keen to enshrine that notion in law, but we should not treat HR so flippantly.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#213

Post by fknorangesite »

vlod wrote: post #202
rippercushions wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never worked in a company where HR does flight and hotel bookings. Just how many people work in your company? Or are you using "HR" to refer broadly to everybody working in any type of administrative role? In my (typical) company, HR sets travel policy but everything else about travel, down to approving expense reports, is outsourced to vendors or other departments.

This was for a v.large investment bank. There are most likely other departments, but HR generally manage all of the trip details and are the front for the employee. i.e. to save the employee wasting a bunch of time talking to X number of depts (that don't return calls etc) to try and get things setup. i.e. From a costing perspective, you don't want senior people or super busy (and expensive) engineers wasting a bunch…

I still feel like you are using "HR" here to refer to a broader set of administrative roles that are not actually Human Resources.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#214

Post by asdff »

Apocryphon wrote: post #64

This comment always stuck with me - does anyone know more of the history ombudsmen, who must've existed prior to the rise of modern HR departments? > octokatt on Feb 19, 2020 | parent | context | un‑favorite | on: Why Susan Fowler blew the whistle on sexism at Ube... > why must it be this way Companies used to have Ombudsman; literally a board member who did nothing but listen to employee complaints and help them e h…

Universities still have them at least.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#215

Post by knorker »

nullsense wrote: post #210
knorker wrote: post #13

At an all hands I once saw an employee ask a question to leadership for legal advice in a class action against the company itself. :-)

Nice. How'd that go down?

A slow and clear "I am the company lawyer. I am not your lawyer".

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#216

Post by daniel-cussen »

Spoom wrote: post #21

HR represents the company. Where your goals and the company's aligns, they can be helpful. Where they diverge, perhaps less so. I think a lot of these sorts of articles discount the idea that your goals and the company's will frequently align. For example, if you're being harassed, it's very often in the company's interest to stop that happening. It will cause you and perhaps more people to quit if they don't, and th…

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Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#217

Post by epicureanideal »

lliamander wrote: post #205
epicureanideal wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was looking for a link I know exists about this. Do you happen to know the very long article, or maybe book that was written about this topic?

https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/woke-institutions-is-j...

That's the one! Thank you!

And that article mentions this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Inventing-Equal-Opportunity-Frank-Dob...

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#218

Post by [deleted] »

frellus wrote: post #46
OnlineGladiator wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I'm so sick of the cynicism in general. Personally, I'm so sick of there not being nearly enough cynicism in general. I've met cops that aren't total pieces of shit (who all ended up quitting in less than 5 years), but that doesn't mean cops aren't total pieces of shit. If the nature of the job is unethical, you should rightly call it out as such. HR's job is to pretend to be your friend while doing wha…

Again, I understand why most people think this way, and I'm not going to call you naive - just cynical. From my experience (not all of it, but a bunch of it) -- HR has been the balancing force against bad management and even CEOs because, like the lawyers, there're there to protect the company. I've not been in a room where the CEO is sitting there telling the lawyers and HR how to abuse employees -- sorry. Likewise,…

[deleted]

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#219

Post by foobiekr »

frellus wrote: post #10

I get the whole "HR can be evil" point, but this article could have also been, "Having friends in management is fine, but management is not your friend". Personally, I'm so sick of the cynicism in general. Can we make points and articles about protecting yourself, as an employee, without resorting to such things? As a manager in a company, I've both had friends in HR and also had HR been my friend. Need to fire that…

The basic problem with the "you guys are too negative" mindset is that abusers are very common. I'm sure { manager, HR }-you-can-be-friends-with exists. I've at least got very solid friendships with multiple management chains (note the plural, as i think it matters), so I know it is _possible_, the problem is it is _rare_.

To quote one of the HR people I worked with, when I said I was having trouble putting someone just diagnosed with brain cancer on a PIP, "What's the big deal? I just fired someone who just had a heart attack."

The people attracted to the HR career path are basically not good people, either because they aren't particularly bright or driven or because the ones that succeed are basically machiavellian.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#220

Post by daniel-cussen »

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #111
acover wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is the nature of being a cop unethical? I agree there are abuses of the power but from what I've seen in real life it's important work.

I should mention I am referring specifically to police in the United States. The short answer is because cops defend cops, including bad cops. People like to say it's just a few bad apples, but it's far more prevalent than that. And even if it were just 1 in 100, the fact that the cops band together to protect a rapist/murderer/whatever shows that they care more about unity than morals. I realize this answer is lacki…

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