Men Without Work (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#451

Post by selimthegrim » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:08 PM UTC

Mezzie wrote: post #183

luckylion wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes that super weird for me is the inheritance by gender. I get reparations, e.g. for enslaving people. In its simplest form, you break it down to "should have been paid instead" and make that a claim that can be inherited. There are arguments about collective guilt and claims against collectives etc, but that's a second step. But women aren't an ethnic group. Children are pretty much a 50/50 split between mal…

I agree that reparations make no sense for sex based oppression historically. The only/main type of reparations I might agree with is something like extra social security for women of an age where they were legally prevented from earning more. (You can't turn around and tell a 65+ year old woman she should have chosen a higher earning career if you didn't let her). Or providing state support to child brides (I'd also…

There was indeed a case in Iowa where the female babysitter assaulted the minor male under her care, became pregnant by him, and the court ordered him to pay child support

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#452

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:10 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #444

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. Your dismissive comment would be funny if it wasn't being proven true right now. European people are currently slowly being replaced in some cities in Europe as over half of the newborns are now from middle e…

You must really not have any faith in European culture if you think that those half of those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims

And where did I claim that, quote, "those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims", endquote?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#453

Post by majkinetor » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:13 PM UTC

pnf wrote: post #359

UncleOxidant wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but masculinity means changing your own tires Does it? Does it also mean not cooking & cleaning? Never crying? Watching sports? Not changing diapers? Never eating quiche?

I've seen plenty of male chefs so not sure what you're getting at. It's not about not doing something, it's about doing something when you can. No man should shy away from changing a diaper or cleaning. What are you even talking about?

Sounds about right, but when you reverse that, why wouldn't woman do something that she can?

Judging from experience, mostly man do that.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#454

Post by Mezzie » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:28 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #451

Mezzie wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that reparations make no sense for sex based oppression historically. The only/main type of reparations I might agree with is something like extra social security for women of an age where they were legally prevented from earning more. (You can't turn around and tell a 65+ year old woman she should have chosen a higher earning career if you didn't let her). Or providing state support to child brides (I'd also…

There was indeed a case in Iowa where the female babysitter assaulted the minor male under her care, became pregnant by him, and the court ordered him to pay child support

Yeah, I heard about that. Talk about fucked up! She should be paying for his therapy.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#455

Post by lazide » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:38 PM UTC

eloisius wrote: post #376

fxtentacle wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

> Nowadays, it is not mandatory anymore for the man to have a good enough job to feed the family, because double-income-households have become the norm I'm not sure I buy this. I think consensus mate selection preference of women is still that their partner earns more than they do. With women excelling in higher ed and in the workplace, pressure is even greater for men to be successful if they want to find a wife.

In my experience, there definitely is that pressure - and higher performing wives definitely complain about and lose respect for partners who they married awhile back, but who now earn less (or they now earn more).

Not everyone of course, but it’s an obvious pattern.

Lots of infidelity, or strained relationships.

However, there are also a lot of higher educated and professionally accomplished women that don’t find long term partners. I’ve run across quite a few of them over the years. The ones I knew more closely, the issue was often that they were very occupied with work and stressed out, which is not conducive to, well, much of anything. Gender roles not helping.

Someone with the same set of attributes but who was male, would be (and looking at compatriots, are) married with kids.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#456

Post by lazide » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:53 PM UTC

abdabab wrote: post #427

lordfrito wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel for you brother. For your kids to be successful, their life strategies have to take into account the environment they're living in. Basic game theory stuff. Play chess, not checkers. The world I was hoping my kids would live in no longer exists, and so those old strategies no longer work. In fact, they put you at a disadvantage. This is why people who "play by the rules" feel left out, disenfranchised, whateve…

> Keep your head down and weather the storm. This certainty a good way to survive but not a good way to live.

If you’re in a storm, what other alternatives do you propose?

Carefree singing from the prow of the ship is pretty awesome when the sky is clear and the waves are small.

It’s a solid recipe for being lost at sea and never seen again when you’re in a hurricane.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#457

Post by lazide » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:55 PM UTC

lordfrito wrote: post #433

abdabab wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Keep your head down and weather the storm. This certainty a good way to survive but not a good way to live.

It's about learning to live smaller. Not trying to change the world, but building a small world around you. Hiding in plain sight. Etc. Plenty of joy to be had even if you choose to disconnect from the nonsense around you. Something about Buddhism and suffering in there as well.

In my experience, it also grounds us and gives us useful feedback loops with what we can really control, and what really matters to us, the most.

Which is super important.

In my opinion, a lot of the crazier things going on in the world are due to a lot of people not being well connected or healthy with those things, and being susceptible to manipulation by outside forces looking to harness that angst.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#458

Post by lazide » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 7:57 PM UTC

selimthegrim wrote: post #444

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive. Your dismissive comment would be funny if it wasn't being proven true right now. European people are currently slowly being replaced in some cities in Europe as over half of the newborns are now from middle e…

You must really not have any faith in European culture if you think that those half of those newborns are going to grow up to be doctrinaire conservative Muslims

There are already a lot of changes going on in the newer generations in the West - a lot of switching back to more conservative behavior (and expectations), a lot less sex, a lot less social media, etc.

Adults are clearly not feeling great right now, and many kids have unmet needs, so their kids are reacting to it by having different preferences.

Some will be good and productive, some won’t, lather rinse repeat.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#459

Post by lazide » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 8:03 PM UTC

Karawebnetwork wrote: post #270

lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and…

The challenge of course, is that each person defines it based on what they see and hear, often by accepting or rejecting it, not by making their own nuanced opinion.

For most people, they don’t/won’t have any sort of formal education on the topic, or if so, it will be very cursory.

Fundamentally, any given person only has so much attention and memory.

This means it’s a zero-sum game in many ways.

X thing gets more attention, means Y thing gets less.

When folks start reacting to things (like feminism or not), they’ll also use unfavorable language to do so, and smear terms to convey often backhanded definitions of things.

So at some point, the definition shifts based on how people talk about it/how the media that permeates everyone’s life talks about it, not how it actually is, or even what their personal experience has been like.

And there has been a lot of attention/pumping up/putting in folks feeds things that portray total fantasy. Both pro/con feminism, pro/con a lot of things.

So it’s not surprising that hardline, not actually helpful ideas get propagated, then reacted to, and lines get formed the way they do, with often little nuance or connection to reality.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#460

Post by pnf » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 8:07 PM UTC

mint2 wrote: post #450

pnf wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you want to hit people with garbage cans? Now I got to cut ya. It may be the case that most of the popular usage runs afoul of Fowler. But that was only to point out that, leaving aside some more or less confusing idioms, language doesn't stay put for the grammarians and dictionary writers, embrace change. My point was an aesthetic one. Regardless, abusus non tollit usum. In my own usage, I don't see the logical…

A: “It’s utter ridiculous that the likes of Messieurs Pasteur and Semmelweis suggest our hands are unclean with those so called germs! We are gentlemen, gentlemen’s hands are clean!” B: “Well, I think he has a point about surgeons washing their hands and they’re definitely gentleman?” A: “Ah but that is the exception that proves the rule! Therefore Gentleman’s hands are clean! Well that’s that, the argument is shut d…

Argumentum ad Pythonis! Clearly, the only way to resolve this is with a deep dive into type theory and the demarcation problem. In lieu of that, I'm happy to cede the last word to the wags in the cheeseshop.