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U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

nytimes.com

281–290 of 514 posts

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would agree these are system-wide less efficient, but shouldn't paid "garden leave" be legal if parties agree upfront?

Well if all companies are doing it, employees will have no option other than to agree. This is the current case with non compete afaik.

> Well if all companies are doing it, employees will have no option other than to agree.

If all employees rejected them, companies would have no option but to disband them.

The issue is that when one enters into a non-compete without equivalent compensation the government loses potential tax revenue. Income tax is maximized when workers are working most productively, so there is a strong incentive for the government to keep workers working productively. Similar reason for why we have minimum wage.

If non-competes provide sufficient "garden leave" then the tax revenue should not be impacted, so there is no reason for the government to care. The productivity is still captured. The government isn't in the business of spotting bad deals for individuals – you are quite free to make all kinds of boneheaded financial decisions – only bad deals for itself.

Granted, execution and enforcement can be a challenge. Say you enter into a non-compete with "garden leave" of $1. Is that sufficient compensation with respect to the intent of allowing "garden leave"? Now you need a tribunal to make the call and all the complexities to go along with it. And so, when drafting laws, it may be more practical to prohibit "garden leave" as well.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#282
post #276
post #253

I think we're all pretty familiar with the arguments against non-competes. Does anybody have a compelling argument for them, as practiced in 2023 in the US? While we're at it, does anybody have a compelling justification for allowing non-poach agreements, too? From my perspective, they both seem like a non-durable benefit to $current_employer at the expense of a compounding opportunity cost to the greater economy (in…

In theory, it lowers the risk of hiring in certain situations. So, if the alternative is not hiring, that's beneficial. For a lot of companies, the "sauce" is a personal relationship that isn't trade secret. If you hire a salesman, and give them access to Mr. Big, you create an incentive for the employee to trade the relationship for your competitor's money. Penalizing the change in employer is not the only way to de…

That makes sense as to why an employer would want a non-compete.

Is there some way that this translates into why "we the people" would want to allow companies to enforce non-competes?

From my perspective, if a company's sauce is personal relationships, the non-compete is not particularly effective in engendering loyalty and extracting the greatest value from that relationship.

A disaffected salesperson is not going to be enthusiastic about leveraging their relationships for an employer they're unhappy with -- whether they're under a non-compete, or not. This means they'll extract the minimal value to keep their salary, but not the maximal value out of the potential they have access to.

In fact, a non-compete prevents that salesperson from bringing that relationship to a different company, where that relationship might produce greater dividends for "we the people" (as measured by the new company's ability to attract salespeople and engender their loyalty).

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#283

I understand noncompetes in some fields... but this can be solved in other ways. In my country (slovenia), a noncopete is valid only if you're being financially compensated by some amount while the noncompete lasts. It's a bit complicated here, but ideally companies wanting noncompetes could be forced to pay the difference between what the worker would've earned if they stayed (+ some safety factor for a potential ra…

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Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#285

Good. I've seen over and over this harm friends in frustrating ways. Tech aside, non-competes in other industries are completely insane. My wife is an optometrist and all local shops have draconic noncompetes you are forced to sign. If you leave the shop you can't work within 30 miles (or more!) of that location. I've had friends move entire cities just so they can get out of a terrible work situation. Worse, I've ha…

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Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#286
post #253

I think we're all pretty familiar with the arguments against non-competes. Does anybody have a compelling argument for them, as practiced in 2023 in the US? While we're at it, does anybody have a compelling justification for allowing non-poach agreements, too? From my perspective, they both seem like a non-durable benefit to $current_employer at the expense of a compounding opportunity cost to the greater economy (in…

Only thing that comes to mind is a scenario where a sales person goes to another company and takes all their sales leads with them. This happened at a previous employer, at which time they instituted noncompetes for all the salespeople and most of the engineering force. They forgot to have me and several other very senior engineers sign the noncompete, which was extremely hilarious to me when I went to another compan…

Any stories after that conversation?

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean there? Maintaining competition in a labor market seems like it's absolutely within the scope of trade regulations.

Why are they suddenly making this decision in 2023? Seems like something congress should change.

Congress is rapidly becoming a failed institution. They have gradually outsourced their duties to various administrative authorities (such as the FTC) to the point that the only thing they must do to keep the US running is pass the annual budget and raise the debt ceiling.

I think any time an administrative authority or, even better, the courts do something that a legislator wants done, they breathe a sigh of relief that they don't need to spend any of their valuable political capital trying to do it themselves. The fact that what someone else does, they can also undo, never seems to play into their calculus.

One example:

Well after Democrats were established as the pro-choice party, there were periods in which both chambers and the presidency were all controlled by the Democratic party. So obviously, with pro-life activists agitating to get pro-life justices appointed, congress spent nearly zero time passing any pro-choice laws.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#288

Non-Competes being legal is only acceptable I think if the worker will continued being paid for the period of the non-compete. I can see reasons that non-competes exist, but those reasons don't really make sense in a world where patents and trademarks also exist. The fact that they are essentially illegal in California, and California's economy works shows that they are unnecessary and also don't hinder technological…

> but those reasons don't really make sense in a world where patents and trademarks also exist.

Trademarks don’t really help with this. The bigger issue is trade secrets. You can’t make someone forget how your as-yet unreleased prototype is designed, and proving that their subsequent work for a competitor draws on that knowledge is expensive and time consuming. Not to say that non competes are a good idea, just saying trademarks are irrelevant to the conversation, and trade secrets are a more complicated issue than patents.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#289

I understand noncompetes in some fields... but this can be solved in other ways. In my country (slovenia), a noncopete is valid only if you're being financially compensated by some amount while the noncompete lasts. It's a bit complicated here, but ideally companies wanting noncompetes could be forced to pay the difference between what the worker would've earned if they stayed (+ some safety factor for a potential ra…

I don't understand them in any field. I was forced into signing one for tech that blocks me from working from any competitor for up to 2 years. Depending on how loosely you define competitors that could mean I can't work in tech for 2 years after this job. Unfortunately for me I can't afford a lawyer. Fortunately for me non-competes of this level are generally unenforceable. You have NDAs already. It's not like you'r…

Non-competes make more sense when you're working a highly personal job. It's very common for doctors to sign a non-compete saying they can't set up a practice within 15 miles of their employer for some time so that they don't take all of their clients with them when they leave.

Re: U.S. moves to bar noncompete agreements in labor contracts

#290
post #253

I think we're all pretty familiar with the arguments against non-competes. Does anybody have a compelling argument for them, as practiced in 2023 in the US? While we're at it, does anybody have a compelling justification for allowing non-poach agreements, too? From my perspective, they both seem like a non-durable benefit to $current_employer at the expense of a compounding opportunity cost to the greater economy (in…

So, here are a couple of arguments for:

1. I have a relative who is an MD. He was recruited cross-country at great expense. (Average cost to recruit an MD can be about $250K). So, if his comp was $200K/year and it cost $250K to recruit, a neighboring practice could monitor for new incoming docs, and make an offer of $220K/year in salary to the newly hired doc. If that happened, it would be in the best interest of the doc to switch jobs, but the original practice would be out $250K in recruitment costs.

2. In the case of an acqui-hire, the team is often the special sauce. You embed a bit of non-compete in the form of stock options that vest on a particular schedule, but it may be tricky to structure the deal in an attractive way without a non-compete and non-poach agreement.

3. Trade secrets are often hard to cover in NDA's. Your trade secrets may become embedded in the employee's mind in a manner that they cannot extricate. So, if your employee receives training that includes your trade secrets, those trade secrets will be implicitly used at the next job.

So, I think the argument basically boils down to there being a vast upfront cost to the employer for getting a new employee. If the employee switches to another company, the value of that upfront cost transfers to the new company with no compensation to the old company. It seems a new, more pernicious workaround to non-competes is where employers are charging their employees for training if they leave early. That seems even more hostile than a non-compete.

(As a side note, I think non-competes can be quite damaging. In the case of the MD relative, he was fired, essentially without cause, and his non-compete forced him to be unemployed for a year before he was finally able to convince the former employer to waive the non-compete. So, there should be very hard parameters around non-competes. One thing I think should be mandatory is a written buyout amount for any non-compete that has some basis in reality. For example, if my MD relative was recruited at a cost of $250K with a 2-year non-compete, then he could buy himself out at $250K, minus about $20K for each month of service he completed. Obviously, I haven't fleshed this idea out all the way.)

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