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Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

hannahritchie.substack.com

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Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trains are only useful within and between densely populated areas. The 200 km weekly trip might well be to a cabin in the mountains, definitely no train.

Going to a cabin in the mountains is a luxury few of us can afford. Even fewer of us can afford to buy such a cabin more likely you would rent it for a weekend or week. So if you're going to the mountains say twice a year we could assume that you also rent a car to get there, and back.

Even if they own a car, the aim is to reduce car ownership and drastically reduce car usage/need, not eliminate them entirely. There are 289MM cars in the US (.87 cars per person), in The Netherlands there are 8.7MM cars (0.5 cars per person).

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#302
post #86
post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

In theory. In practice the market has spoken as to what kind of a form-factor people find the most useful for personal transportation in different climates and economic development scenarios. There’s no reason why ICEs couldn’t have supported the kind of vehicles some people imagine other people need. The market has spoken, EVs only started gaining traction when they started resembling actual cars in form and functio…

I wish the market did a better job of ensuring that car owners pay all the related infrastructure costs for their vehicles, as opposed to some things that are paid for by other taxpayers.

Gas might cost more without subsidies. Car ownership in cities would cost more to pay for parking. Roads outside of cities would be paid for from local taxes. Trucks would pay more because they damage roads much more than cars, which would encourage rail and boat transport. Etc.

It's not a free market if these things are being paid for by all taxpayers, including those who don't drive, or don't drive as much.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#303
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oil ain't a picnic either, so what's the answer?

Grid-powered public transit replacing 80% of trips by personal vehicle.

This is the sort of elitist fantasy nonsense promoted by the WEF that completely disrespects the average person and family.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A cargo ebike is a game changer for all of this. I can bring 2 kids to school and do a full grocery trip without even breaking a sweat. I do 6 miles each way and since I avoid traffic it's just as fast as driving. Plenty of people bike all 4 seasons, the Netherlands is the go-to example... it rains a lot there. Driving to work under-dressed in a heated box is a luxury that's kind of harmed a lot of people's ability t…

You can't be serious. It's great it works for you. An ebike isn't a serious replacement for cars used by families in most of the world.

It's understandable that you're having a hard time imagining it because you live in a car-centric society, but "most of the world" is objectively wrong here.

There are roughly 1.4bn cars in the world for 7.8bn people... so most people get around without one.

You can see it if you travel a bit, in India and China you'll see families getting around on bikes and scooters. Over 1/3 of the Dutch use a bike as their primary means of transportation. People often cite weather as a reason not to, but if the Finnish can regularly use bikes to get around (another European country with high bike use)... nearly anyone can.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#305

We cannot afford to ransack places like Chile to extract lithium for 'electric vehicles', which plumb new depths of pollution and third world degredation. The extraction of rare earth minerals for our electronically surveilled and controlled future comes at a terrible cost, as Siddharth Kara's new book "Cobalt Red: How The Blood of The Congo Powers Our Lives" outlines in excruciating detail. https://read.macmillan.co…

I agree with your sentiment and also understand that this won't stop the world's thirst for a commodity (see: dole bananas, hersey chocolate, all mined gemstones, and dinosaur juice). If we really are a global economy I would like to see proactive protections for these countries (like fair trade agreements) that guarantee environmental regulations are imposed and observed and that workers are fairly compensated and n…

It's over. The Chinese control the world's rare earth minerals. Along with India they also produce the vast majority of global pollution, while the western world self destructs in an orgy of self flagellation over various junk science climate dramas. https://www.business-standard.com/article/international/94-o....

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#306
post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

The electric bike people really need to shut up with the activism.

Electric bikes are more unsafe than motorcycles ! This is irregardless of infrastructure (eg. I checked stats in Netherlands which is cyclist utopia according to HN).

I used to ride a motorcycle but I would never actively encourage someone to start it - it's just irresponsibly risky. If you chose to do it regardless (like I did) that's your choice - but me advocating it is like promoting smoking or alcoholism/drug abuse.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium isn't a rare earth mineral or metal, it is the 33rd most common element on earth. There is a substantial cost to doing nothing and continuing the status quo

There is a very substantial cost to destroying the planet chasing after a toxic, highly inefficient and polluting alternative to ICE vehicles. Hybrid vehicles are clearly the answer. Tire pollution is a far more serious problem than tailpipe emissions. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/14/electr... This scene is absolute madness https://twitter.com/siddharthkara/status/1611042107871080449

> Tire pollution is a far more serious problem than tailpipe emissions.

What an extraordinary claim.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in college, the car was being advertised as 100 MPG. The car looks virtually the same, if you can get 100MPG you can probably get insane ranges without huge batteries. It's basically a motorcycle on three wheels, those things have great milage.

> It's basically a motorcycle on three wheels, those things have great milage. The mileage really varies on a lot of things. Cruising on the highway with some side cases and a little bit of gear I usually only get like 35ish MPG on my 1050cc bike, into the low 40s without any cases and with my windshield fully down/off. Fully loaded with camping stuff I'd only get like 30mpg. My 650cc bike with some cases as well got…

I agree that on highways motorcycles' horrible drag (easily 2x of cars) results in terrible fuel economy considering their size.

Around town at low speeds (therefore drag is negligible), size becomes an asset, and a small motorcycle or scooter can get very good fuel economy, assuming it doesn't have an insanely overpowered engine.

An electric motorcycle or scooter around town is extremely efficient.

For example, the Arcimoto (https://www.arcimoto.com/) gets 5.5 miles/kWh.

The Aptera (which blurs the line between motorcycle and car) gets 10 miles/kWh! By comparison the Model 3 (the most efficient current mass market EV) gets 4 miles/kWh.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how exactly would this work if you have multiple small children, or are disabled, or a variety of other things. Why is there this insistence that Americans are just 'big dumb'

I find the city to be better for small children and for disabled people than car focused suburbs to be honest. It means stuff is closer to get to and both groups of people are not completely reliant on other people driving them around to get to places. I do not believe the only way a world can be livable for disabled people, small children, and elderly people, is to pave the entire country in tens of millions of mile…

city downtowns are filled with criminals, homeless, and drug addicts. not very kid friendly env

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A brand new with markup replacement of the head unit/smart stuff guts of an ICE car I had was ~$1,500 including labor . That core essentially ran Android with a lot of custom skinning and applications, so essentially a cheap Android tablet slightly hardened to handle the heat of a car parked in the sun. What does a set of 19" wheels cost? A set of tires to put on those wheels? The full brake assemblies? The ABS syste…

You seem to be completely ignoring the rest of the iceberg that this glorified screen rests on. And no, not every car needs to have top-end leather heated fake-racing shaped seats. Some people just want to get from A to B and not everybody has a SWE salary/compensation like the slightly-detached-from-normal-people's-reality crowd here at HN. Of course when I discuss this with a tech crowd I need to expect a tech-focu…

> You seem to be completely ignoring the rest of the iceberg that this glorified screen rests on.

Yeah the stuff it rests on such as the frame, the suspension, the wheels... That's the vast majority of the cost of a car. What sensors are you thinking about that add supposedly many many thousands of dollars to the cost of a car? Backup sensors aftermarket, at retail, can be had for $20. Mobileye sells aftermarket ADAS kits for installed, at retail. What do you think an automaker moving a million of those a year pays per unit?

Tear out a all of those computers and sensors from a $35k car and....now you're at a $33k with a lot of the comfort options removed.

Which part of the iceberg do you imagine makes up the majority of this cost? Which seems to be the most expensive part: the Android tablet, the $200 worth of sensors, or the couple thousand pounds of metal called the frame?

Could you ship a car without many computers on it? Sure, maybe. You'd have a hard time meeting emissions requirements without some kind of EFI though, so instantly there's a computer there. Same goes with needing to have some kind of EGR system to once again meet emissions and fuel economy standards. Then, you're going to have a hard time having a purely mechanical ABS, which without you'll get incredibly poor safety scores. These days a backup camera is required in the US, so you'll need some kind of display and a camera.

Like, sure, one could make a car without many computers in it. It wouldn't be radically cheaper than cars with computers in it, it will probably perform worse and have fewer comfort features. The only real selling point would be "hey, its a basic car!"

You probably wouldn't sell nearly as many units as the big auto makers, as I really doubt it would be as popular (for example, why isn't the Mirage the most popular car in the US?). This means your per unit manufacturing costs would be higher. In the end I imagine such a vehicle would actually cost more in the market than less as some of the big costs like safety testing would amortize over a much smaller fleet of vehicles.

Even the Aptera, an incredibly stripped down car, is estimating ~$25k base.

Lets take the Mirage for an example. ~$16kUSD for the extreme base tier. Tear out the computers, the motor, the transmission, we're probably at like $11k. Now add in a 45kWh battery pack at ~$151/kWh so ~$7k, and we're at ~$18k. Add a drive unit/charging system for another few grand, and we're at ~21k. Starting price for the Bolt, $27k, and that comes with all those fancy "make the car a smartphone" features. And if we price it with the Bolt's battery size (60kWh) it gets even closer.

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