Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend • Hacker News Board

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#61

Post by throwawaysleep » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

civilized wrote: post #8

abalashov wrote: post #5

Prior to going out on my own at a precociously young age, my time in corporate America (~3.5 years) was fairly brief, and less than half of it spent at companies large enough to have an HR apparatus in any meaningful sense. I always found their seeming double-agent role confusing and ambiguous in a slightly sinister way, even as they preached that they were there for us workforce people if we needed anything.

The dehumanizing name "Human Resources" says it all, doesn't it? We're not people. We're not even workers. We're just resources that happen to be members of the human species. Similar to other resources like staplers. There's no perfect euphemism for what HR does, but something like... I don't know... Workforce Management? Would be a little less awful, I think?

Honestly, it is one of the few honestly named things in the corporate world. You are a corporate resource. Nothing more.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#62

Post by drewcoo » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

frellus wrote: post #46

OnlineGladiator wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I'm so sick of the cynicism in general. Personally, I'm so sick of there not being nearly enough cynicism in general. I've met cops that aren't total pieces of shit (who all ended up quitting in less than 5 years), but that doesn't mean cops aren't total pieces of shit. If the nature of the job is unethical, you should rightly call it out as such. HR's job is to pretend to be your friend while doing wha…

Again, I understand why most people think this way, and I'm not going to call you naive - just cynical. From my experience (not all of it, but a bunch of it) -- HR has been the balancing force against bad management and even CEOs because, like the lawyers, there're there to protect the company. I've not been in a room where the CEO is sitting there telling the lawyers and HR how to abuse employees -- sorry. Likewise,…

> I'm not going to call you naive - just cynical

OnlineGladiator said that you would call them cynical and they would call you naive, not the other way around.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#63

Post by beckingz » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #49

Someone once said to me, "HR is there to protect the company from the employees." Always keep that in mind. That's what they're paid for. For some reason, I also think of the quote [1] from Bleak House , "Suffer any wrong that can be done you rather than come here!" In the old days, they were called "Personnel." Now that's too old-fashioned, and pretty soon the name "HR" will be, too, so they'll call it something els…

"People & Culture" is the new hot term.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#64

Post by Apocryphon » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

This comment always stuck with me - does anyone know more of the history ombudsmen, who must've existed prior to the rise of modern HR departments?

> octokatt on Feb 19, 2020 | parent | context | un‑favorite | on: Why Susan Fowler blew the whistle on sexism at Ube...

> why must it be this way Companies used to have Ombudsman; literally a board member who did nothing but listen to employee complaints and help them e heard. This tended to lead to unions, which reduced company profitability, and was replaced with the current HR model, which is now giving way to out-sourced HR models.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#65

Post by xen2xen1 » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:15 PM UTC

toughsuck wrote: post #39

HR as a function will always represent and serve the company. Thinking anything else is foolish. But building a strong and friendly relationship with your HR partners is universally a good thing and something one should strive for (be at as as people leader or individual contributor).

Keep your friends close?

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#66

Post by jacobr1 » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:16 PM UTC

elil17 wrote: post #40

darth_avocado wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re in any big city, you’re not going to get more than a “consultation” of half an hour for $100. Most of the answers you’ll get in that meeting are the ones you can find by a quick Google search, anything more and it will cost you a lot more. The only cheap option, if you’re lucky, is the local bar association usually does pro bono office hours that you could possibly sign up for and get in. Those don’t work f…

Well don't go to a lawyer in a big city? You can easily interact with a lawyer virtually. Even if all they do is tell you what you could find out in a Google search if you knew what to search, it's going to be more useful for the average person because lawyers have the confidence to interpret legal terminology, contextualize what they are telling you, and recognize what is and is not normal (e.g. notice predatory ter…

Also commonly-held positions that are false, or not applicable in a certain jurisdiction. Google can be misleading.

This is one of the big advantages of having a good network of friends and family with a wide variety of expertise. I wouldn't necessarily ask my lawyer friends to review a contract for me ... but I won't hesitate to ask if I should ask a lawyer, or about a general principle or clause that seems weird and help inform if I need more specific paid advice.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#67

Post by throwawaysleep » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:17 PM UTC

Spoom wrote: post #21

HR represents the company. Where your goals and the company's aligns, they can be helpful. Where they diverge, perhaps less so. I think a lot of these sorts of articles discount the idea that your goals and the company's will frequently align. For example, if you're being harassed, it's very often in the company's interest to stop that happening. It will cause you and perhaps more people to quit if they don't, and th…

> For example, if you're being harassed, it's very often in the company's interest to stop that happening. It will cause you and perhaps more people to quit if they don't, and there might be legal risk.

Depends. You going to sacrifice a secretary or a engineering manager?

You basically need to try and determine what your value is to the org before going to HR.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#68

Post by biztos » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:17 PM UTC

Spoom wrote: post #21

HR represents the company. Where your goals and the company's aligns, they can be helpful. Where they diverge, perhaps less so. I think a lot of these sorts of articles discount the idea that your goals and the company's will frequently align. For example, if you're being harassed, it's very often in the company's interest to stop that happening. It will cause you and perhaps more people to quit if they don't, and th…

That's been my experience too -- after all, HR people are also just trying to do their jobs as well as they can, and if you need something they perceive as their job to provide, they're usually helpful.

But it's important to remember that "representing the company" absolutely can include unethical behavior like stonewalling employees, lying on management's behalf, and slow-walking your requests until they finally time out (by design).

Having experienced that in a big-company context, I would suggest people be very careful and have a Plan B for any HR interaction, especially in time of layoffs. While you're getting hired and set up then HR is probably on your side, to a reasonable approximation, and when they're not your manager will help. After that, never assume they're on your side, or on your manager's side -- HR will absolutely go behind the back of a manager too on behalf of "the Company" (i.e. higher managers).

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#69

Post by csa » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:17 PM UTC

elil17 wrote: post #32

seneca wrote: post #6

I disagree with the "mostly harmless" take in the article. HR is the group everyone, regardless of where they stand in a company, must be the most careful in dealing with. They are beurocrats and, in modern western companies, are becoming ideological commissars. One of the strongest suggestions I would make to anyone going into white collar work is to avoid HR as much as possible, and be extremely careful of everythi…

If someone's going to drive company culture, why shouldn't it be HR? They seem well qualified to do so. For example, someone in HR would be in a good position to do the research to figure out if work-from-home improves productivity or employee happiness, and they would also understand the tax and legal implications of a possible work-from-home policy.

> If someone's going to drive company culture, why shouldn't it be HR?

Because HR people are natives of HR culture and only have second hand knowledge of what “engineering culture” or “finance culture” or $WHATEVER culture is, much less what makes a good/healthy/productive engineering or finance or $WHATEVER culture.

I will also add that, while there are a few very talented HR people (and the good ones are freakishly good), most folks in the HR field ended up there rather than sought it out. They are not collectively the most talented or ambitious group of people, and the field often attracts ideologues who sometimes have dysfunctional perceptions of the world we live in.

Re: Having friends in HR is fine, but HR is not your friend

#70

Post by sumtechguy » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 6:18 PM UTC

crmd wrote: post #44

frellus wrote: post #10

I get the whole "HR can be evil" point, but this article could have also been, "Having friends in management is fine, but management is not your friend". Personally, I'm so sick of the cynicism in general. Can we make points and articles about protecting yourself, as an employee, without resorting to such things? As a manager in a company, I've both had friends in HR and also had HR been my friend. Need to fire that…

I get what you’re saying but don’t think the Catbert analogy is apropos here. What I have seen as a senior tech executive and old person is that young people entering the workforce after around 2015-6 often rely on HR to be a neutral arbiter in workplace conflicts, analogous to parental chaperones or university administrators. What I believe the author is trying to convey is that this misunderstanding can have disast…

I think every gen gets to learn this lesson. Not just 2015-16. I have seen it many times in my 30yrs. Newbie gets in a twist over something (usually very justified). HR is then a role of the dice if they will help or just come down on everyone or just the two involved, etc... They usually are the arbiters of policy, that they made, rightly or wrongly.