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Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

hannahritchie.substack.com

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Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#141

Post by bob_theslob646 »

syntaxing wrote: post #53
dwheeler wrote: post #14

Even if we have more electric vehicles, that doesn't decarbonize anything unless the source of the energy doesn't generate carbon dioxide. In many places you're just moving the source of carbon dioxide (often with a total increase). I think that part is often overlooked.

Let’s put aside the fact that a state of the art gasoline engine is about 20% efficient and an EV is about 50% efficient if you include power delivery deficiencies if we use non renewable fuel sources. What you’re stating is an infrastructure problem, not a specific EV problem. Genuinely would love to see literature how a EV increases the total carbon increase compared to a ICE vehicle.

You don't need an academic paper to see how much carbon is used to actually manufacture a lithium ion battery that is mined versus recycled domestically in the country the car is produced. Just follow the supply chain in how the mining process works for typical batteries today.

https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-co2-emitted-manufac...!

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#142

Post by ag315 »

It's not just lithium that's the problem; copper is also a major component, and we don't have nearly enough of that either.

A full transition to electric vehicles is not viable with current technologies. If we can make a big leap in solid state battery technology then that could make all the difference, but the viability of those is being continuously postponed.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#143

Post by goda90 »

pjmlp wrote: post #132
bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

Sure, if one likes to enjoy cold, snow and arrive wet at work during Winter, or sharing body odors during Summertime, also assuming healthy enough to stay on a bicycles or trikes. And yes I know plenty of people do endure weather conditions for their two wheel drive, most never will unless forced to do so.

There are enclosed pedal assist vehicles out there that can keep you dry. A bit harder to park than regular bikes but that's not a hard problem to solve, just convert some car parking spots into something smaller.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#144

Post by nsonha »

bertil wrote: post #10

This article and the IEA sources that they rely on assumes that an EV is a car. That’s not a good assumption: electric bicycles and trikes like the Aptera are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport. At that size, you can rely on smaller batteries and solar panels for many journeys (it isn’t fully sufficient for an Aptera but an e-bicycle with a small roof can ride as long as the Sun shine…

> bicycles and trikes like the are much better direction for the vast majority of individual transport

in your opinion? Better in what way? Does everyone think like you?

Between your and their assumption, I personally think theirs sounds more realistic, they just assume the norm continues to be the norm.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#145

Post by [deleted] »

matsemann wrote: post #139
TeeMassive wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have a family. It has to be there when you need it. Here in Québec we had an elected official who used to preach against cars and then once she got elected bought a SUV because, like everyone else with kids, she needed it for her family. The "you shouldn't need to own a car" attitude is arrogant and authoritarian in nature.

No, the authoritarian and arrogant attitude is from those thinking it's their right to drive everywhere at whatever cost to others. And you're missing the point. Why do you need a car because of family? Think further than your own nose tip. Wouldn't it be nice with a society where you didn't have to drive to do any little chore? And the few times you needed to drive, a care from some car sharing service was available…

[deleted]

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#146

Post by cainxinth »

I had a friend ask me a few years back about investing heavily in some ETFs that were connected to lithium mining and other minerals used for tech products. I cautioned them against it. Not because I don't think the need for these materials will continue to grow, but because I worry that increased demand will spur new innovation in finding, extracting, and processing them -- which would drive down prices in the long run. I don't have a crystal ball, but that seems to be a common pattern in the history of our exploitation of this planet's resources.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#147

Post by hannasanarion »

rootusrootus wrote: post #110
CalRobert wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The market is profoundly distorted by single use zoning, parking minimums, density maximums, wide (and high speed) stroads, and other urban design choices that force long journeys. It's also not safe to be on an ebike surrounded by electric Hummers, F-350 super duties, and your normal "whole kindergarten class in the blind spot" Escalades. Having just spent a week in Utrecht it's very clear that "the market" can cert…

What's your justification for saying that it's the US with a profoundly distorted market and not places like Utrecht?

How about the fact that America's most walkable and transit-accessible neighborhoods are also the most expensive and highest demand?

People want this kind of development, they flock to it, and they are willing to pay astronomically high prices to get it. The government keeps the supply low with exclusionary zoning that makes all types of construction except car-centric single family housing illegal.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#148

Post by AstralStorm »

matsemann wrote: post #133
malfist wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the real problem is that we move 2000+ kgs around to move a human of 80 kgs around. Why is that a problem? If I want to visit my friend who lives 200 miles away, I'm not going to hop on a bike, or walk, or find a horse and buggie to take me there. Vehicles are not inherently evil. In fact they're a great enabler. Even if we take your example at face value and assume nobody travels beyond their city. How is that…

How often do you travel those 200 miles? Why can't you use a car share service for that one occasion? I'm not assuming people never travels beyond their city. Why do car enablers always use people needing a wheelchair to push their agenda? If you're so concerned with their well being, wouldn't it be better if they got the roads for themselves and didn't get stuck in traffic and could always find parking close? Or if…

Funnily enough cars suck for people with wheelchairs compared to a specialty designed EV. Mostly due to the doors, lack of a ramp, misplaced steering column and an unnecessary chair.

Turning a wheelchair into a speedy electric vehicle is quite easy if not cheap. It's one wheel removed from an electric recumbent trike.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#149

Post by JumpCrisscross »

kuschku wrote: post #119
dagw wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

vast majority of their tickets (Sparpreis and Super Sparpreis) in the 9,90 / 14,90 to 49,90 If you are flexible and plan ahead. If I decide now to go visit my sister tomorrow (~4 hours by the fastest train route), want to get there not much slower than by car, and travel at a time that is convenient for me, then I'll end up paying a lot more if I go by train, even if I'm traveling alone.

Yes, that's necessary to provide incentives for people to spread the load over the whole day. Otherwise everyone would pile into the same trains during the middle of the day instead.

Nobody is saying it’s unreasonable. Just that there remains a valid justification for owning a car. Not driving it everywhere, all the time. But having one.

Re: Does the world have enough lithium to move to electric vehicles?

#150

Post by SuoDuanDao »

hannob wrote: post #127
jgilias wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory. In practice the market has spoken as to what kind of a form-factor people find the most useful for personal transportation in different climates and economic development scenarios. There’s no reason why ICEs couldn’t have supported the kind of vehicles some people imagine other people need. The market has spoken, EVs only started gaining traction when they started resembling actual cars in form and functio…

"Let's build bike lanes that are so scary only the bavest will dare to use them - and also subsidise cars in any way we can." - "The market has spoken, people want cars!"

Well, the market has also spoken as to what kind of councils get elected and what kind of plans those councils approve. Of course, that's in large part because car owners pay infrastructure taxes cyclists don't. But that's also precisely what the market is - the segment who's paying. If wishes built livable cities there'd probably be more of them.
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