Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#431

Post by bumby » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

andreareina wrote: post #264

bumby wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a factory had people quit and expected everyone else work extra hours Extra hours to cover is fairly common in factory work. What differentiated it in my experience is there was a union to ensure people were adequately compensated for overtime.

And that means that companies are incentivised to hire adequately. Whereas companies see no immediate (and attributable, this is important) problems when exempt employees are pushed to work overtime.

Ehh…from my experience, overtime was the rule, not the exception so I don’t know how strong that incentive was.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#432

Post by nemo44x » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:30 PM UTC

roncesvalles wrote: post #402

m00x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make it to L5/6 without being a good engineer. I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). A lot of them get there by being interviewed by other bad engineers, and just float when the market is strong, or use politics to get in a good position. A guy at my company just merges library upgrade PRs blindly. That's all…

I agree to an extent. When Amazon goes on a hiring spree, they really do open up the floodgates. I suppose they rely on their infamous PIP-and-fire process to weed out those who shouldn't have come through. "Hire first, evaluate later."

We all know the 80/20 rule. You’re looking for those 20%. You need to hire more and more people to find them.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#433

Post by bumby » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:31 PM UTC

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #352

andirk wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder how people who are only in the room when things happen have any pride in their work and aren't embarrassed at their lack of production. A couple jobs ago was people who put most of their effort in to making sure their group of shitty engineers wasn't found out. It was a lot of work! Since they were all about quantity of people over any quality, they had to keep hiring more people, so there was a lot o…

I’ve never understood the people who make no effort to better themselves - they work in technology, everything has a 3-5 year engineering life, they should always be preparing for the next thing. People often can’t control what technologies their employer uses, but if they have solid fundamentals and I can tell they have tried to learn things on their own, more often then not I’ll give them a chance, and it usually w…

>everything has a 3-5 year engineering life

This isn’t true for all industries. Some have software systems with engineering life measured in decades

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#434

Post by bumby » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:45 PM UTC

htag wrote: post #262

dasil003 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to break this to you, but the decline of company-employee loyalty started 40 years ago, and even before that it only existed as a result of unprecedented post-war prosperity and lack of global competition. This doesn't mean that it's all downside for employees though. Amazon grew a huge business and paid their corporate employees top of market with huge upside over the last 20 years due to their phenomenal gro…

> they still have a P&L like any other company Amazon's quarterly reports have all been good so far (Q3 2022 is the latest). Sales are up 15% YoY, and they are profitable.

Net profit margin is down 21% and diluted EPS is down 10% though. Increased revenue with decreased profit/earnings would indicate a loss of efficiency. I imagine layoffs are one signal to shareholders that they’re trying to get that efficiency back.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#435

Post by strgcmc » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:58 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #376

8note wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The workers aren't the source of profits in all cases. Eg, a musician is a worker, but once they've written a song that you now iwn, you can sell infinite licenses to it, regardless of whether the musician is still being paid

But if you hire that musician, you can create more products you can license. The worker generates more revenue streams for you. This is why streaming companies are leasing soundstage space, to create more stuff to license themselves.

But not all types of music are equally in demand. If consumer tastes change, it would obviously make sense to layoff musicians trained to make music for a genre that nobody wants to buy anymore.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#436

Post by dkrich » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:00 PM UTC

gizmondo wrote: post #416

dkrich wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah it’s more complicated than that. The fed is saying that because it’s currently a populist view. However their will to actually cause widespread distress and a severe recession will be tested when the populist view shifts back which we are likely not far from. If you look at this fed from 2018 on it’s readily apparent that everything they do is to appease the popular narrative. Economy needs rescuing from covid? O…

> That sounds silly but does nobody find it at all odd that every fomc rate decision is entirely arbitrary whether they go 25, 50, 75 or more and yet cnbc predicts the exact rate decision every time? That's because the Fed communicates what their next steps are likely to be beforehand. And if circumstances change and predictions are no longer correct, the Fed leaks information before their meeting to make them correc…

In my recollection the fed actually ruled out a 75 bps hike back in the summer for basically no reason which many thought was a huge mistake then quickly reversed course when cpi came in much higher than expected and did hike 75. Yet another reason why they have very little credibility.

Link for reference: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/unhinged-markets-followed-...

Fed funds futures predict what they will do -> cnbc talking heads use fed funds futures in their predictions -> the fed does what everyone thinks they will, rinse and repeat

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#437

Post by password-234 » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:04 PM UTC

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #369

agentultra wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How excellent do you want to be at generic enterprise CRUD apps? Somebody has to build and maintain them. Have you considered that maybe they’re fine with their level of responsibility and can leave work at the office?

That is usually the part where I shake their hands and wish them luck in their next endeavor. If they are not there because they love working with technology, there are other places for them to be.

Cringe.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#438

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:11 PM UTC

silisili wrote: post #396

i_have_an_idea wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no opinion on the MBA bit, but I think you're spot on about people starting to treat companies the way the companies are treating them. ~10 years ago, when I got my first job, I was in the minority, pretty much the only person cynical about big companies' claims how "people are our most important resource", how important is the company "culture" and all of that corporate kumbaya. And, at that point, the vast m…

Nearly 20 years ago, when I was trying to find HR for my first day, there was an older man talking with them already. He said, and I quote, 'Fuck you all, I got your exit interview right here' while grabbing his crotch. He turned to walk away, smirked at me, and said 'what? I'm retired now.' Point being, I don't think you were the only one who didn't love the company 10 years ago.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#439

Post by oblio » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #433

zxcvbn4038 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never understood the people who make no effort to better themselves - they work in technology, everything has a 3-5 year engineering life, they should always be preparing for the next thing. People often can’t control what technologies their employer uses, but if they have solid fundamentals and I can tell they have tried to learn things on their own, more often then not I’ll give them a chance, and it usually w…

> everything has a 3-5 year engineering life This isn’t true for all industries. Some have software systems with engineering life measured in decades

True, but what percentage of software engineers work on those?

The only pool of software that both employs a large number of engineers, has an engineering life measured in decades and isn't rewritten every 3-5 years to a large degree is enterprise software, in my experience. Think C/C++/Java/.NET middleware type stuff.

And I imagine 90% of HN actively runs away from those jobs :-)

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#440

Post by bumby » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

oblio wrote: post #439

bumby wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> everything has a 3-5 year engineering life This isn’t true for all industries. Some have software systems with engineering life measured in decades

True, but what percentage of software engineers work on those? The only pool of software that both employs a large number of engineers, has an engineering life measured in decades and isn't rewritten every 3-5 years to a large degree is enterprise software, in my experience. Think C/C++/Java/.NET middleware type stuff. And I imagine 90% of HN actively runs away from those jobs :-)

I wouldn't know. But I imagine there's an availability bias.

I've worked in more 'traditional' engineering fields (manufacturing, energy, healthcare, aerospace) and the vast, vast majority are long tenured systems built for dedicated uses. I've worked on many systems that are older than me. For those in SV, I imagine it's the opposite. Like you said, HN may be biased to a specific type of development which often leads to biased claims. Tbf, my main issue is with the "everything" modifier in the OPs claim.