Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early? • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#181

Post by hutzlibu » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 9:33 AM UTC

amachefe wrote: post #162

WA wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the conclusion. Why are you glad that your parents forced you for 6 years, if this had basically nothing to do with your later-found joy for music? Couldn’t the same invitation have happened if you just tried piano for a couple months and remembered your one jazz tune?

Maybe because kids don't really know what they wanted. If he didn't play the first 6years, he won't be able to enjoy "jamming" with friends

Maybe most kids don't really have a chance of learning what they really want, if all their major life choices are made for them.

"If he didn't play the first 6years, he won't be able to enjoy "jamming" with friends"

Have you ever learned something with passion vs were forced to?

When kids want to learn something, they are really, really fast at it, meaning he could have started learning at that moment. And you can do simple jamming, without a proper musical education.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#182

Post by jpmoral » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 9:39 AM UTC

flycaliguy wrote: post #76

tzs wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've found it surprisingly low effort to get good enough at guitar and, in fact, piano, that you can start to see social rewards, i.e. people actually want you to play, at least a little. Also surprisingly low cost for a pretty good instrument. $250 dollars will get you a pretty good solid top steel string acoustic guitar (Yamaha FS800 or FG800, Fender CC60 or CD60, half a dozen models from Orangewood) or solid top…

Ukulele is even quicker, kid sized and you can hang it on your wall for art when you’ve moved on.

Low floor, high ceiling

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9YLOlUa7ro

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#183

Post by raffraffraff » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 9:40 AM UTC

sornaensis wrote: post #154

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #96

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

As a kid (7-8) I was forced to play acoustic guitar for several years. I didnt like any of the music (or much music at all) that I played, and ended up quitting. Later on when I discovered rock and metal music I asked my parents for an electric guitar but they refused, saying I had to play the acoustic I had first and then I could ‘progress’ to electric. I was easily discouraged then so I gave up the idea. I didnt en…

Jamming! Music is social. It's a wonderful feeling sing or play along with others.

Piano is a great instrument. Learning piano to a good level transfers to other instruments, because you learn much more than pressing keys. However it's extremely lonely, and therefore boring, to practicing some bullshit polka that nobody wants to hear. I went to lessons for 9 years, sat 7 grade exams, and promptly quit as soon as I left home. Lessons never taught me to jam, fill in, improvise. I found it monumentally boring, and only continued because I was good at it, and had a large sunken cost.

Looking at the Beatles documentary "Get Back", they were just kids with instruments who got to jam full-time. There are plenty of instrumentalists that absolutely kick their asses. What made them special was that they weren't afraid to pay what they wanted to play, and to experiment, together. (They also drove themselves to produce something important to a deadline)

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#184

Post by dukky » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 9:43 AM UTC

midoridensha wrote: post #179

sornaensis wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a kid (7-8) I was forced to play acoustic guitar for several years. I didnt like any of the music (or much music at all) that I played, and ended up quitting. Later on when I discovered rock and metal music I asked my parents for an electric guitar but they refused, saying I had to play the acoustic I had first and then I could ‘progress’ to electric. I was easily discouraged then so I gave up the idea. I didnt en…

Electric and acoustic guitars are really two very different instruments; a bit like comparing trombones with trumpets. The way you hold and play the basic notes is fairly similar, but the techniques are very different for electric because of the amplification and distortion, and of course the sound is extremely different.

I'd agree with this distinction between classical (nylon stringed acoustic) and electric guitar, but steel stringed acoustic plays very similar to electric. I agree that people tend to play different things on them but if you're playing both with a pick you're doing the same techniques on both.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#185

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 9:44 AM UTC

amachefe wrote: post #162

WA wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand the conclusion. Why are you glad that your parents forced you for 6 years, if this had basically nothing to do with your later-found joy for music? Couldn’t the same invitation have happened if you just tried piano for a couple months and remembered your one jazz tune?

Maybe because kids don't really know what they wanted. If he didn't play the first 6years, he won't be able to enjoy "jamming" with friends

Yeah but that's just one of those lucky few that came back to their forced education despite their experience. OP is right, forcing kids into stuff makes most kids hate the subject, completely regardless of its usefulness later in life.

It took me a good decade after high school to find love in topics like geography, biology, history, some parts of physics etc. which were forced down my throat to frankly insane needless levels at school.

A lot of child's momentum is lost because a) teaching well consistently is hard and I see little effort to ie utilize modern psychology for improvement ; b) every kid is unique in many ways, differently developed at early years ; c) being a teacher is seriously underpaid and underappreciated so best leave or don't even start career in it ; d) traditional teaching topics go way too deep and focus more on encyclopaedical knowledge which is sort of obsolete in 2023 ; e) don't focus on properly useful stuff in ie high school like communication, team work, some basic psychology to grok people around you, understanding personal finances and taxation and probably many more reasons.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#186

Post by tinco » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 10:05 AM UTC

midoridensha wrote: post #179

sornaensis wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a kid (7-8) I was forced to play acoustic guitar for several years. I didnt like any of the music (or much music at all) that I played, and ended up quitting. Later on when I discovered rock and metal music I asked my parents for an electric guitar but they refused, saying I had to play the acoustic I had first and then I could ‘progress’ to electric. I was easily discouraged then so I gave up the idea. I didnt en…

Electric and acoustic guitars are really two very different instruments; a bit like comparing trombones with trumpets. The way you hold and play the basic notes is fairly similar, but the techniques are very different for electric because of the amplification and distortion, and of course the sound is extremely different.

No way, I just googled trumpet and trombone, and those are different instruments. Electric guitar and classical guitar are just different flavors of the same instrument. Most guitarists play both, if they've ever touched a classical guitar. Playing electric is both easier and less loud, if you don't plug in the amplifier, so they're a lot more suitable for kids than classical guitars. The association that parents have that electric guitars are for adults and acoustic for kids is insane. In my experience good electric guitars are also cheaper than good acoustic, but I have to admit I haven't tried to buy a classical guitar in 20 years.

Spring on a name brand second hand electric guitar for your kids you won't regret it. Electric guitars are basically inpossible to damage, and a second hand guitar will retain its value so you'll get those $500-800 bucks back when it turns out your kid wants to do something else. Higher quality guitars have lower action and more comfortable necks which makes them easier to play rewarding your kids more for their efforts.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#187

Post by Fradow » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 10:14 AM UTC

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #96

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

I took 10 years of piano. I wanted to when I was a child (and I chose the piano).

The problem for me has not been the kind of music I had to play. My problem is I only learned to perfectly play a song with sheet paper, by repeating it over and over again in the course of a few months until every tiny little detail was perfect. That's because I was prepared to play in front of a large audience, where you are supposed to play perfectly.

What I never learned was how to improvise a somewhat-okay song, or play somewhat ok a song from sheet paper. Those skills could have made it enjoyable to play piano for myself or in a social setting where perfection is not expected.

But since I never learned those skills, the piano in my family house sit unused, and even the keyboard I bought for myself is collecting dust in a closet.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#188

Post by benrow » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 10:16 AM UTC

tzs wrote: post #73

yamtaddle wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found it surprisingly low effort to get good enough at guitar and, in fact, piano, that you can start to see social rewards, i.e. people actually want you to play, at least a little. Meanwhile I put in more hours and had far more formal instruction at a woodwind than either of those combined and... yeah, nobody wanted to hear that shit, it sounds awful (cringe-inducing, even) unless you're excellent . Years of e…

> I've found it surprisingly low effort to get good enough at guitar and, in fact, piano, that you can start to see social rewards, i.e. people actually want you to play, at least a little. Also surprisingly low cost for a pretty good instrument. $250 dollars will get you a pretty good solid top steel string acoustic guitar (Yamaha FS800 or FG800, Fender CC60 or CD60, half a dozen models from Orangewood) or solid top…

A few years back I got a decent second hand student oboe for £300 on eBay. Prices are probably higher now though.

You'd definitely want to check out the second hand market if getting started in woodwind.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#189

Post by hrns » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 10:21 AM UTC

Hayvok wrote: post #136

GlenTheMachine wrote: post #96

My mom made me and both of my brothers take 9 years of piano lessons. Today, not one of us plays - I don't think any of us even has a keyboard in our houses. The reason for this is simply that we were never allowed to play the kind of music we liked . Which was, of course, rock. Or blues, or country. Or, really, anything with a beat. Nope; it was all classical all the time. And piano lessons were the only time we wer…

Same story here with piano lessons - I wanted to write my own music! I would come up with interesting sounds when practicing, and wanted to learn how to develop those further. Nope! Class time rolled around and it was forty five minutes of posture posture posture and finger movements. Mrs. Bell didn’t care about the interesting music I had created, she just wanted me to tick off silly boxes and follow “the plan”. I’v…

Exactly my experience in music school.

I've switched to guitar on my own initiative, started jamming, playing in bands, composing my own music with friends - and it was such fun.

Never touched piano since then.

Reading through other comments here makes me think that as humans we suck at teaching music to children.

Re: Kids and music lessons: why do many promising players quit early?

#190

Post by wccrawford » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 10:27 AM UTC

jamincan wrote: post #86

darkerside wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musical and muscle patterns that form in your mind at a young age don't disappear, they just wait for their time

Would 8 lessons be enough to build that muscle memory though? It is pretty remarkable, though, how long muscle memory can last. I haven't played piano seriously since university except for occasionally noodling on my mom or sister's piano when visiting, and old repertoire seems to flow out of my fingers. Maybe a bit more rusty than when I was taking lessons in my teens, but still there somehow 20 years later.

If nothing else, being exposed to something for a short time has the effect of removing some of the fear of the unknown, at least. You might not be able to repeat any of the stuff you learned, but you'll go into it with a lot less fear the second time, and that's incredibly helpful. And I'm sure some of that stuff will come back to you, too.