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‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

nature.com

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Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> What people who aren't fat do is intellectually recognize that "I could eat forever" feeling, and don't fall for it. That's where the willpower comes into play. I don't think that is quite right, at least from personal experience. I have a good weight and I feel it's almost impossible for me to gain weight. And personally, I don't really recognize the "I can eat forever" feeling. I love food, don't get me wrong, bu…

I don't know what to tell you other than that I was once skinny and young, but then I got older and fitter and my desire to eat changed. It apparently changes quite a lot as different factors in your life influence you, according to the article you're commenting on. It's a good read, I recommend it (and others)!

What factors do you think are influencing your desire to eat more or less? Do you think those will change at all during your lifetime, or do you believe that those factors are entirely genetic?

Additionally, what do you think of the folks who were fat, who then got healthy, and remain healthy? It sounds like you don't believe they can exist, since "metabolism" is just different for everyone, or that if they do exist, they're doomed to failure, since it's encoded genetically and therefore only a matter of time until they "revert" back to their unhealthy state.

Finally, what should we do to the people who have these genetics that cause them to eat and/or gain weight with little or no control? If we could remove those genetics or alter them pre-birth, should we? As for the living people, they obviously cost more to provide healthcare to, so should we split them out from the non-obese-predisposed pool of people?

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#692

The best 'obesity drug' I've found is low-carb + intermittent fasting. 90 pounds later, I'm not hungry and every aspect of my health has improved dramatically.

good for you, but that's not a drug. behavioral interventions don't work clinically. GLP-1 agonists work incredibly well.

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What people who aren't fat do is intellectually recognize that "I could eat forever" feeling, and don't fall for it. That's where the willpower comes into play. I don't think that is quite right, at least from personal experience. I have a good weight and I feel it's almost impossible for me to gain weight. And personally, I don't really recognize the "I can eat forever" feeling. I love food, don't get me wrong, bu…

I don't know what to tell you other than that I was once skinny and young, but then I got older and fitter and my desire to eat changed. It apparently changes quite a lot as different factors in your life influence you, according to the article you're commenting on. It's a good read, I recommend it (and others)! What factors do you think are influencing your desire to eat more or less? Do you think those will change…

You made some good points. I am under 40 so I might still have some changing to do as well I guess! As for factors changing during my lifetime, I am not sure. I don't think it's entirely genetic since genes almost always have some environment mediation.

I do believe fat people can get healthy and remain healthy, and I only meant to say that "metabolism" and desire are mediating but not wholly determining factors.

As for the people who can't stop eating, I don't propose to "do" anything with them. I don't believe in altering genetics or using advanced technology to solve the problem. I don't think we should split them out in terms of healthcare either because that would be cruel. I might also have some predisposition to some other costly condition like heart disease and then I would be in another "more expensive" group and just not know about it because it's not visible like obesity.

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What people who aren't fat do is intellectually recognize that "I could eat forever" feeling, and don't fall for it. That's where the willpower comes into play. I don't think that is quite right, at least from personal experience. I have a good weight and I feel it's almost impossible for me to gain weight. And personally, I don't really recognize the "I can eat forever" feeling. I love food, don't get me wrong, bu…

I don't know what to tell you other than that I was once skinny and young, but then I got older and fitter and my desire to eat changed. It apparently changes quite a lot as different factors in your life influence you, according to the article you're commenting on. It's a good read, I recommend it (and others)! What factors do you think are influencing your desire to eat more or less? Do you think those will change…

> What factors do you think are influencing your desire to eat more or less?

Well, as you said:

> It apparently changes quite a lot as different factors in your life influence you

As far as

> Additionally, what do you think of the folks who were fat, who then got healthy, and remain healthy? It sounds like you don't believe they can exist

There's no implication that they can't exist; just that it's myopic to assume that what worked for them will also work for other people who are fat, particularly when they've tried the same thing and report that it's failed.

> Finally, what should we do to the people who have these [factors] that cause them to eat and/or gain weight with little or no control?

Accessible GLP-1 agonists are a good start.

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if I'd call a veterinary anaesthetist a foremost expert on fat metabolism. His thoughts on insulin signaling are not consistent with the consensus among obesity researchers. He thinks glp-1 works through uncoupling or fat browning which is just not true. The consensus among most obesity researchers is the cause of obesity is primarily neurological, not metabolic. Basically the brain can't properly regula…

Is human metabolism really so different from other mammalian metabolism?

yes. yes it is.

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#697

> In the past, scientists and the public often thought that those with obesity simply lacked the willpower to lose weight. But evidence is growing that most people’s bodies have a natural size that can be hard to change. In the context where we have gone from obesity rates of 13 percent to 40, to suggest that people have a natural weight and that's the cause of this seems absurd to me.

> to suggest that people have a natural weight and that's the cause of this seems absurd to me

People do have a natural weight, and a fraction of people are genetically predisposed to be overweight regardless of lifestyle. But what I find impossible to accept is that somehow that number has mushroomed in the past half-century and particularly in the U.S.

I've lived and/or worked on every continent over the past 40 years, and nowhere have I seen the degree of obesity that is commonplace in the U.S. (I have not been to the Pacific Islands--I know they have the highest obesity rates there for reasons I haven't researched, but they're also a very small population). Anecdotes aside, the obesite rate in the US is nearly twice as high as some European countries (and not because people in those countries are malnourished).

It's pretty clearly the food. Living in other countries I never had to worry about weight, but as soon as I moved to the U.S. I started gaining weight right away even though I eat quite healthy. It's just very very hard to escape processed foods in the U.S. unless you 1) have money to buy more expensive food, and 2) are very conscious about it and make considerably effort to stick to fresh fruits, veggies, rice, fish, etc., no fast food, sodas, packaged foods, etc. etc.

It's also well documented that obesity is correlated with income, and it's not hard to see why, when the grocery options in low-income areas have very little healthy, minimally-processed food. Nutritional inequality is a huge issue and there's very little action taken about it. Just think about how cheap and easy it is to get unlimited refills of soda -- with a soda fountain nearly everywhere you go, compared to eating fresh food. Many people have neither the time nor money to eat healthy, and despite "be healthy" slogans, etc., nearly everything around us conspires against eating healthy (unless you have lots of $).

I'm happy that obesity-reduction pills are coming on the market because some people are naturally predisposed to gaining weight and will be helped greatly by the pills. But what I hope doesn't happen (but already see happening) is that being used to paper-over this huge problem of nutritional inequality that is the root cause of much (though not all) of the obesity in the U.S. at least.

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#698

Just making sure everybody understands that these drugs are not a solution to the problem. Assuming they work, they just make dieting easy. Look at people who successfully lost weight with diet -- studies show that almost all of them will regain most of their weight within 5 years. And the basic reason is because almost all dieting regimes are shitty, unsustainable way to live and at the end people are left tired of…

GLP-1 agonists are an incredibly effective pharmaceutical intervention, why are you dismissive of them?

behavorial interventions for weight loss don't work clinically. the only other intervention that comes close to the effect size of GLP-1 agonists is surgery.

you can argue that they treat the symptoms and not the disease, sure. the mechanisms of systemic obesity aren't well understood. but it's inarguable that this is disease of homeostatic misregulation, the set point is too high. which is why behavioral interventions fail.

we don't talk down to the people suffering from other diseases of homeostatic misregulation (eg diabetes) for their moral failings, we treat it. but that's how diabetes is treated now, "just stop being fat".

It is very much in analogous to where depression was 30 years ago. Now, therapy and anti-depressants are widespread and destigmatized.

The difference is that while SSRIs are only marginally better than placebo, GLP-1 agonists are _incredibly_ effective. Huge effect sizes.

I think in 30 years you're going to look back on your opinions now and be embarrassed that you were telling people to avoid a very effective and safe pharmaceutical intervention and "just stop being depressed"

I've been having the same conversation over and over again since GLP-1 agonists were approved and it's always the same. People who are opposed to a very effective pharmaceutical intervention but are not able to articulate any cogent reason as to why. It's just stigma.

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just saying the exact same thing to my wife yesterday. We’re both trying to lose weight, for the millionth time in the 20 years we’ve been together. Exasperated, I just said “I don’t get it. I was an artist who had no technical background, and was able to teach myself computer science and now I’m a highly successful engineer. I did that. And yet I can’t lose 10 pounds to save my life.” It’s so hard to eat healt…

> It’s so hard to eat healthy, I honestly cannot fathom how people do it. Learn to cook well so that eating out would result in lower quality meals compared to what you could make yourself. Once you're controlling what goes into your meals, instead of outsourcing it, that makes it easier to control portion sizes, how much fat/oils go into things (I've found that restaurant dishes have an absurd amount of fat in them…

There's a lot of words here so you took some time to write this.

Who is it for?

Why do you think this is a new/novel idea the person you are replying to, and others reading it, has/have not heard before?

Re: ‘Breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

#700

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s so hard to eat healthy, I honestly cannot fathom how people do it. When I started taking semaglutide, I finally understood it. I'd eat a salad... and be full and more than satisfied! I'd look at a muffin right after lunch, and go "eh, better things to do with my time" instead of immediately having an overriding desire to eat eat eat. Before, I could eat half a pizza and still be hungry (way out of what my body…

> Too many people are convinced that everyone has the same subjective experiences of hunger and craving, but it's simply not the case. Some people implicitly hold this idea because it's a convenient ideology that allows people to morally congratulate themselves for having a functioning satiety circuit. Where does this line of thinking stop? Is everything pre-determined by genetics? Is everyone who is smarter than me,…

Instead of thinking in terms of "everything", "everyone", etc, it may help to think in terms of bell curves and outliers on that curve.

Would you be willing to believe that, out of 7+ billions people in the world, there is at least one person whose brain is set up to constantly hammer them with feelings of hunger? (I'm not sure how a basic proposition like this could be rejected, since the chemicals and processes that govern hunger are something that science actually has some understanding of, and we also know that basically anything can go haywire.)

Next: if you can believe that one person is such an outlier, can you believe that hundreds are? Thousands? Millions? Whatever size that group is, it seems like a possible answer to your worry of when these lines of thinking stop. Perhaps some outlying group of people do actually need something more than "good old fashioned hard work and discipline", especially considering that thousands of years of people repeating such sentiments hasn't solved quite a lot of problems (beyond just obesity).

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