Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#91

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:09 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #59

lcw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general layoffs especially when they are proactive, which in this case they seem to be, show investors that the company is being fiscally responsible. This isn't an indication that Amazon is going to increase profitability it's a sign to investors that they are taking in recession indicators and adapting accordingly. It doesn't seem malicious it seems perfectly reasonable and sane. Of course it's Amazon so there i…

I don't understand how its rational unless you assume staff have negative value. They don't, they have positive value, nothing gets done without staff. More staff means you output more work and make more money. Staff should be the last thing to cut.

A $10 bill has positive value as well. Nevertheless, buying them in bulk for $15 each is a bad idea. (Merely having positive value is not enough to make something a good purchase.)

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#92

Post by germanjoey » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:09 AM UTC

debatem1 wrote: post #24

monero-xmr wrote: post #4

How is Google avoiding any layoffs? I know their structure is such that stockholders supposedly can’t force any changes, but it’s hard to justify being the only company without any cuts. Their stock is falling and they still have a single cash cow for over 80% of their revenue despite over a decade of attempts to diversify.

They're going to. The new performance process is clearly teeing people up to get the axe. They'll just say it's part of their new process rather than a layoff.

What's the new performance process?

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#93

Post by 8note » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:10 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #65

adoxyz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laying people off reduces one of the biggest costs to an organization, thus making it more profitable (even if in the short term), thus the stock price rises. Stocks are always forward looking and investors believe that by cutting down costs and re-focusing will make amazon worth more in the future.

How can a company be more profitable with less workers if the workers are the source of the profits?

The workers aren't the source of profits in all cases.

Eg, a musician is a worker, but once they've written a song that you now iwn, you can sell infinite licenses to it, regardless of whether the musician is still being paid

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#94

Post by lcw » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:10 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #59

lcw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general layoffs especially when they are proactive, which in this case they seem to be, show investors that the company is being fiscally responsible. This isn't an indication that Amazon is going to increase profitability it's a sign to investors that they are taking in recession indicators and adapting accordingly. It doesn't seem malicious it seems perfectly reasonable and sane. Of course it's Amazon so there i…

I don't understand how its rational unless you assume staff have negative value. They don't, they have positive value, nothing gets done without staff. More staff means you output more work and make more money. Staff should be the last thing to cut.

Staff has negative value when demand growth doesn't meet a companies forecasts. You are right there should always be positive output from staff, but it doesn't mean that there is a demand for said output.

I think when you say value you aren't speaking fiscally. If that's the case then I would say I'm not trying to minimize the output of workers being laid off. I'm just saying that the value of their output isn't marketable to consumers, so from a capitalist perspective a company should rationally make adjustments.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#95

Post by sokoloff » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:10 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #65

adoxyz wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laying people off reduces one of the biggest costs to an organization, thus making it more profitable (even if in the short term), thus the stock price rises. Stocks are always forward looking and investors believe that by cutting down costs and re-focusing will make amazon worth more in the future.

How can a company be more profitable with less workers if the workers are the source of the profits?

Perhaps the conclusion is that (at least some of) the workers aren’t the source of the profits.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#96

Post by i_have_an_idea » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:10 AM UTC

VincentEvans wrote: post #36

Here’s a thought that has been percolating in my mind for a bit since these “market adjustments” began a month or two back. Somehow at some point, in what perhaps could be blamed on the ever-hated mass produced MBAs - companies got really comfortable with the “it’s not personal, it’s just good business” of letting go of their employees for a slightest reason, or sometimes for no reason at all - just to make it look t…

I have no opinion on the MBA bit, but I think you're spot on about people starting to treat companies the way the companies are treating them.

~10 years ago, when I got my first job, I was in the minority, pretty much the only person cynical about big companies' claims how "people are our most important resource", how important is the company "culture" and all of that corporate kumbaya. And, at that point, the vast majority of people around me cared and wanted to do a good job, going up and beyond.

Fast forward to now, and pretty much everyone has the attitude of "f**k these guys", doesn't want to be there and will do the bare minimum to get by. And that's exactly what companies have demonstrated that they deserve.

People are tired of job hopping to get market pay, dealing with bulls**t, and being thrown under the bus at the slightest hint of an economic downturn.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#97

Post by lapcat » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:11 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #58

VincentEvans wrote: post #36

Here’s a thought that has been percolating in my mind for a bit since these “market adjustments” began a month or two back. Somehow at some point, in what perhaps could be blamed on the ever-hated mass produced MBAs - companies got really comfortable with the “it’s not personal, it’s just good business” of letting go of their employees for a slightest reason, or sometimes for no reason at all - just to make it look t…

> We are seeing a bit of a market downturn - but it hasn’t hit Amazon pocketbook now, has it? Are they in danger of running out of money? What happened to “people are our most important resource”? Companies plan for where the market is going, not last quarter’s results. It’s fully clear to everyone that the economy has shifted dramatically. They are adjusting as appropriate. Also, these people will be laid off with s…

> Companies plan for where the market is going, not last quarter’s results.

Yet all of these companies overhired, which led to the current problem.

> It’s fully clear to everyone that the economy has shifted dramatically.

I don't think that's fully clear.

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#98

Post by metadat » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:14 AM UTC

Firmwarrior wrote: post #66

m00x wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make it to L5/6 without being a good engineer. I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). A lot of them get there by being interviewed by other bad engineers, and just float when the market is strong, or use politics to get in a good position. A guy at my company just merges library upgrade PRs blindly. That's all…

> I interviewed several Uber/Amazon engineers and they couldn't solve a simple problem (very easy problem that most bootcamp grads could do). I don't know you personally, and I don't want to start a flame war here, but if there's one thing FAANG senior engineers are good at, it's solving simple coding problems in interviews If you're saying they can't actually proactively get useful work done on their own, or quickly…

This runs contrary to my firsthand experience. Have been disappointed by Amazon engineers who couldn't solve simple level-1 problems in an interview. I know there are smart people there. Somewhere. Else.

One time the candidate had a bunch of video games out in plain view (Switch and Xbox, IIRC). Apparently couldn't be bothered to put them away for the remote interview. They proceeded to flail and scored a zero on every question. What are people thinking in these scenarios? -_-

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#99

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:14 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #59

lcw wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general layoffs especially when they are proactive, which in this case they seem to be, show investors that the company is being fiscally responsible. This isn't an indication that Amazon is going to increase profitability it's a sign to investors that they are taking in recession indicators and adapting accordingly. It doesn't seem malicious it seems perfectly reasonable and sane. Of course it's Amazon so there i…

I don't understand how its rational unless you assume staff have negative value. They don't, they have positive value, nothing gets done without staff. More staff means you output more work and make more money. Staff should be the last thing to cut.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon to Lay Off over 17,000 Workers, More Than First Planned

#100

Post by chiefalchemist » Thu, Jan 05, 2023, 1:15 AM UTC

VincentEvans wrote: post #36

Here’s a thought that has been percolating in my mind for a bit since these “market adjustments” began a month or two back. Somehow at some point, in what perhaps could be blamed on the ever-hated mass produced MBAs - companies got really comfortable with the “it’s not personal, it’s just good business” of letting go of their employees for a slightest reason, or sometimes for no reason at all - just to make it look t…

Or...the strongest survive. Amazon being one of the strongest, obviously. That is, and MBAs thinking longer term would know, it's not a downturn. It's opportunity. Opportunity to come out the otherside even strong.

Jeff is saying "save your money." Amazon is saying "we're cutting." It's self-fulfilling. And once it's over Amazon rein will be even further solidified.