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NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

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Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#171

Post by Bostonian »

alcover wrote: post #131
rsstack wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC has 30,000 streets and only a handful of days of snow in the year. By having garbage trucks that can deal with a few inches of snow, you avoid the need of buying dozens of dedicated vehicles that will rot 360 days a year.

> only a handful of days of snow in the year I know modern economy has gone full-JIT but I naively wish we could just stop in this case and.. wait. Then this question of truck fleet would be moot.

Millions of NYC residents have jobs and schools to go to and grocery shopping to be done. Locking them down for even a few days has huge costs.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#172

Post by jacquesm »

wolverine876 wrote: post #152
dendrite9 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember looking into this a little bit and the conclusion seemed to be that for most garbage truck uses the range was not the limiting factor. Pickup time was more important, and batteries are attractive given that most garbage pickup is stop-pickup-start-drive a short distance then stop again. In Seattle I believe I saw the longest route was less than 70 miles but I can't find a source. There was a purchase of ba…

> Caternary lines have always seemed like a good solution but there must be a good reason they aren't more popular What reason?

Ugly, expensive, maintenance headache. What's not to like... They are however more environmentally friendly than diesel engines and it works well if you only have a few well trafficked routes. But you can't do this for a whole city, and garbage trucks and snowplows need to go into every street, not just the main boulevards.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#173

Post by wolverine876 »

yepguy wrote: post #138
brookside wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why are they using garbage trucks to plow snow? You are sort of answering your own question here. > snowplows a few days per year that you need them NYC has 6,300 miles miles of streets. Maintaining an entirely separate fleet of plow vehicles large enough to clear the streets quickly would have its own additional costs.

Why do they even have their own fleet of garbage trucks, though? I'm pretty sure the garbage trucks where I live are all privately owned.

Why default to privately owned?

Public services can be cheaper, more reliable, and you have more control than if you pay someone else to maximize their profit. NYC government has tons of experience and expertise in managing something like this.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#174

Post by JumpCrisscross »

wolverine876 wrote: post #139
kspacewalk2 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better for whom or what? Surely not for the New York City budget, or the folks who pay for it.

Better for those folks and the budget, both of which will feel the full impact of climate change. (But I don't think a separate fleet is the answer.)

It’s better for the environment to build and maintain a separate fleet of occasionally-used snow plows?

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#175

Post by alephnerd »

Loughla wrote: post #159
Reubachi wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because NYC is entirely different than where you live, most likely. City gov subsidizes trash pick up instead of allowing private companies to bid, because any private company would lose money. And if no city subsidized trash pick up, New York will be New Delhi.

I don't understand how NYC couldn't make money for a private trash company. The trash company I use makes money, and our population density isn't anywhere near what it is in NYC. I have to imagine the largest cost is fuel, and it stands to reason that it takes much more fuel to get all of the trash where I live. I don't understand what you're saying, I guess. I don't understand how a city being large can just automat…

NYC already has private trash pickup and it's a bit of a S#1Tshow - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/15/nyregion/nyc-garbage.html

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#176

Post by unregistereddev »

mabbo wrote: post #123
legitster wrote: post #11

> “ With current technology, full electrification isn’t possible now for some parts of our fleet, but we are monitoring closely and really hope it will be,” Gragnani said. We are really letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike.

Plugin hybrids have the worst of both options as well as the best. They have to carry with them an entire gas engine, plus large electric motors, plus a huge battery. That's a lot of mass. This makes them inefficient as gas vehicles, and less efficient as EVs. Take a look at the Toyota Prius Prime, considered a great PHEV. It's got almost the same gas milage in combined city/highway driving as my 2012 Honda Civic (ar…

I'm a bit confused by your numbers, and I suspect we may be mixing multiple units of measure (maybe due to different definitions of gallon?).

The 2021 Prius Prime is rated at 53mpg highway. Let's assume that is optimistic and it gets 50mpg. Its fuel tank holds 11.4 gallons, but you don't want to run it dry - let's say 10 gallons are usable. That is a 500-mile (~800km) range after the battery is dead. At 75mph, that requires stopping to refill the gas tank every 6 hours and 40 minutes.

The most efficient 2012 Honda Civic is the hybrid, which is EPA rated at 44mpg highway. That is very efficient. However, 44mpg -> 53mpg is a 20% increase in distance per gallon of fuel. The Prius Prime is significantly more efficient. Since we're intentionally ignoring electric range in these numbers, I think the efficiency gains are mostly from the 9 years of R&D that passed between these two cars being built.

Interestingly, the non-plugin 2021 Prius Eco is also rated at 53mpg highway. I do think it's odd that the extra weight from a larger battery didn't have a bigger impact on fuel economy. It looks like that makes a small difference in town, where the Prius Eco gets 58mpg vs the Prius Prime's 55mpg.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#177

Post by wolverine876 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #167
wolverine876 wrote: post #164

It's discussed elsewhere in the thread, but overehead wires seem appealing: * They solve the power availability problem * They reduce the need for batteries, reducing cost and waste from manufacturing and disposal. * They could be used for electrifying other vehicles like buses * Their ROI seems especially high in dense cities, especially NY: One overhead wire serves all the traffic on the road below. Plus, dense cit…

They work for buses because buses follow set routes. There aren't overhead lines running through every single street. By comparison, garbage trucks do have to patrol essentially every street. Putting overhead lines through every street may be more expensive than batteries.

What do you think of my last point (in the GP)?

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#178

Post by jacquesm »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #26
legitster wrote: post #11

> “ With current technology, full electrification isn’t possible now for some parts of our fleet, but we are monitoring closely and really hope it will be,” Gragnani said. We are really letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike.

I've been saying this for years. I just don't understand it. A car that can drive ~40 miles on pure electric that has an ICE for longer trips would satisfy the needs of everyone. For like 90+% of people, it would mean never using gas for their commute while also eliminating range anxiety. I'm especially surprised about the lack of plug-in hybrids for semi trucks. I'd think having a little extra electronic torque woul…

A Toyota Prius is pretty close to that.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#179

Post by WalterBright »

kkfx wrote: post #154
WalterBright wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> specialized power split transmissions The thought occurs to me to make the rear wheels powered by the ICE and the front wheels electric. Then no wacky transmissions. I don't know anything about a "power split" transmission, but isn't that the sort of thing a differential gear set does very well at?

It's VERY hard to keep a vehicle run straight with non-mechanically-tied wheels, you'll almost never get a "perfect enough" balance ending up in an engine pushing/pulling against the other. That's why for instance we do not have much multi-motors EVs without a mechanical coupling...

I'm not suggesting left-right, I'm suggesting forward-back.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#180

Post by mechanical_bear »

Loughla wrote: post #159
Reubachi wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because NYC is entirely different than where you live, most likely. City gov subsidizes trash pick up instead of allowing private companies to bid, because any private company would lose money. And if no city subsidized trash pick up, New York will be New Delhi.

I don't understand how NYC couldn't make money for a private trash company. The trash company I use makes money, and our population density isn't anywhere near what it is in NYC. I have to imagine the largest cost is fuel, and it stands to reason that it takes much more fuel to get all of the trash where I live. I don't understand what you're saying, I guess. I don't understand how a city being large can just automat…

There are complicating factors in NYC, as well as the fact that the average resident doesn’t pay what it actually costs for trash pickup, so moving to a private model would cost significantly more for each household. (Obviously TINSTAAFL, and this cost is just hidden in other ways. Eg taxes)
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