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NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

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Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#81

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

legitster wrote: post #11

> “ With current technology, full electrification isn’t possible now for some parts of our fleet, but we are monitoring closely and really hope it will be,” Gragnani said. We are really letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike.

I don't understand it either. People seem to fanatically pursue and defend purity. Gas or electric. Hybrid is too complicated.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#82

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

anonu wrote: post #74
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been saying this for years. I just don't understand it. A car that can drive ~40 miles on pure electric that has an ICE for longer trips would satisfy the needs of everyone. For like 90+% of people, it would mean never using gas for their commute while also eliminating range anxiety. I'm especially surprised about the lack of plug-in hybrids for semi trucks. I'd think having a little extra electronic torque woul…

I'll play the devil's advocate here: its because hybrids are boring. Specifically, they accelerate slowly. We live in a world of instant gratification (tweets, tiktok, etc..) People want the same with their cars. Which is why TSLA was successful. Personally, when I think TSLA I think of a car that dominates the 0 to 60 charts for a fraction of a cost the ICE cars on the list.

The idea that hybrids accelerate slowly is probably a leftover stereotype from when the only hybrids for sale were econoboxes like the Prius. The instant torque from an electric motor actually helps with acceleration. These days many of the quickest supercars are hybrids. And there are a bunch of consumer cars where there the hybrid is quicker than the ICE version.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#83

Post by nickpp »

chitowneats wrote: post #77
jeffbee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC garbage trucks spend a very long time parked in front of the same building all night, crushing bags full of plastic coffee cups. Ask anyone who has ever tried to sleep in Manhattan. A completely reasonable solution that doesn't require a wholesale change in the way refuse is collected in that city would be to plug the truck in at the building where it is standing. That said, a wholesale change is what they need.

It never ceases to amaze me that the self styled "Greatest City on Earth" can't come up with a reasonable solution for its garbage.

Garbage is a difficult issue everywhere. Part of the entropy problem of the universe…

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#84

Post by treis »

legitster wrote: post #11

> “ With current technology, full electrification isn’t possible now for some parts of our fleet, but we are monitoring closely and really hope it will be,” Gragnani said. We are really letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. At this moment in time, Plug-in hybrids are the superior technology for nearly every application. I don't understand why they get so overlooked by consumers and manufacturers alike.

Because they need both an ICE and battery powered engine it's a more complex & expensive solution than picking one or the other. Not only expensive in dollars but car weight, storage room, maintenance, and so on.

It's okay as an intermediate step but all electric is much better long term.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#85

Post by ElevenLathe »

hef19898 wrote: post #68
i_am_proteus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the headline references "power," the issue is that these electric trucks do not have enough battery capacity to plow snow for a full day before recharging overnight. I have always thought that municipal road services had great potential to be electrified via partial catenary: take power from (and charge batteries) where the roads are electrified, discharge battery where the roads are not electrified.

Stupid question so, why would you use a garbage truck to plow snow? Over here, cities, towns and musipalities use different vehicles for different jobs, suxh as garbage, snow plowing, street cleaning and so on...

This is a guess but most cities have a road/right of way department that does snow removal. For whatever reason, in NYC this is apparently done by the sanitation department. I think this is a meatspace Conway's Law, unrelated to whether or not it is actually better to have separate trucks or not.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#86

Post by WWLink »

ecshafer wrote: post #70

Battery operated garbage trucks don't sound like a great idea, at least for all day use. With the push for EV I am not sure why we aren't seeing a push for the installation of streetcar power lines, these already exist and are used for busses. If we have a garbage truck that has the battery capacity for say 30 minutes, then it could be on the power line for the majority of the time. This would limit battery waste as…

I agree, what we need is to make them blow the blackest black diesel smoke possible.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#87

Post by asdff »

IronWolve wrote: post #30
legitster wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about this. I don't think battery swapping scales up very well. Firstly, I know someone who works on Daimler's electric trucks and he assures me that their electric powertrains are EXTREMELY dangerous just from the amount of power represented. Union operators have expressed negative interest in connecting/disconnecting the batteries outside of the factory. Secondly, the economics - the battery pack on a…

Its already being used at the scooter level, scales fine there for small applications where batteries are as easy to replace as filling the tank of gas.

It scales well there because you can hold a scooter battery with your hand.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#88

Post by LarryMullins »

quantified wrote: post #8
danielfoster wrote: post #3

Why does critical infrastructure need to be among the first to “go green?”

Not that it needs to go first. It's visible and it's possible for a small number of decision-makers to decide and have an impact over a larger swath of infrastructure. 1000 vehicles can be the result of 10 people deciding, not 1000 people deciding.

"Critical infrastructure" is critical because it has some job more important than being a billboard for a cause. If you can make it a billboard without compromising it's primary function, then great, but obviously EV garbage trucks isn't such a case.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#89

Post by JumpCrisscross »

chitowneats wrote: post #77
jeffbee wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NYC garbage trucks spend a very long time parked in front of the same building all night, crushing bags full of plastic coffee cups. Ask anyone who has ever tried to sleep in Manhattan. A completely reasonable solution that doesn't require a wholesale change in the way refuse is collected in that city would be to plug the truck in at the building where it is standing. That said, a wholesale change is what they need.

It never ceases to amaze me that the self styled "Greatest City on Earth" can't come up with a reasonable solution for its garbage.

> never ceases to amaze me that the self styled "Greatest City on Earth" can't come up with a reasonable solution for its garbage

The status quo is sanitary and efficient. All things considered, New York’s garbage problem is on par with its snow problem. Well managed enough to work, but annoying enough around the edges to be fun to bicker about.

If you live in low-density New York, your experience mirrors suburbia; high, and your trash disappears down a building chute. It’s only we who live in the middle density who have to haul garbage to the basement and hear the beeping trucks at night. Even then, it’s clean and works.

Re: NYC officials say they can't find EV garbage trucks powerful enough to plow snow

#90

Post by Ekaros »

hef19898 wrote: post #68
i_am_proteus wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the headline references "power," the issue is that these electric trucks do not have enough battery capacity to plow snow for a full day before recharging overnight. I have always thought that municipal road services had great potential to be electrified via partial catenary: take power from (and charge batteries) where the roads are electrified, discharge battery where the roads are not electrified.

Stupid question so, why would you use a garbage truck to plow snow? Over here, cities, towns and musipalities use different vehicles for different jobs, suxh as garbage, snow plowing, street cleaning and so on...

It is one of those solutions that at first look might sound good. But with closer inspection there is more and more problems. Like for example is equipping the trucks sensible? And what happens to the garbage that should have been collected? And training people for both jobs. As driving snow truck does require some expertise.
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