Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S. • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#61

Post by IMTDb » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:35 PM UTC

jraph wrote: post #52

thunky wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job. Doesn't that make it a fair trade? Musicians generally don't make a killing either.

Nope. If I cannot live comfortably with a dream job, I'll work on something else unfortunately. And work on whatever dream I have with whatever time and energy remains, if any. Otherwise, I'd already be working on the exact things I want to work on, and earn almost nothing (for maybe a long time).

Isn't that your decision ? Why are these two situation related so differently:

I quit my boring job as a dev in the banking sector to work in agriculture, hours are longer and money is tighter but it's my dream job ! (Way to go ! Keep working your dream, money is not everything !!!)

I quit my boring job as a dev in the banking sector to work in the gaming industry, hours are longer and money is tighter but it's my dream job ! (OMG you should unionise, it's so exploitative !!!)

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#62

Post by factsarelolz » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #23

RupertWiser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s fair if the product ends up making a boat loads of money. Games are high risk but a very lucrative industry. Just look at how successful football players were in getting a slice of the pie. I’d still consider that a dream job.

> Just look at how successful football players were in getting a slice of the pie. I’d still consider that a dream job. In this case they are the product, and there are a lot of customers. Plenty of people working on the things that make those players valuable, building and staffing stadiums, and filming and broadcasting events worldwide, that don't get a share. Because they aren't the product.

> that don't get a share

They wouldn't have those jobs if the players or the league did not exist. That's their share. They make a lively hood off the product's operations.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#63

Post by phpisthebest » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

cool_dude85 wrote: post #11

lettergram wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever worked in a company with a union? Look what just happened to the railroad workers. The US government forced them back to work and gave everything to the companies. Unions are effectively a corporation running labor. So you go from working for the company to working for your union rep. They then pimp you out and get kick backs. Wanna leave your job for another company or role? Good luck, you drop in seni…

I work in a white collar union in the US and this has not been my experience at all. I don't "work for my union rep", the "highest rank in the union" wouldn't decide what happens in case of layoffs, very little is based on seniority. Sounds like you have a very warped idea of what union work is like.

I would love to see a copy of that union contract. I have never seen a Union Contract in the US where by Pay and employment protections where not based on Seniority

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#64

Post by coldpie » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #6

*Assuming the ATVI/MSFT merger goes through, which it might not. The title should really say Activision Blizzard's first union is formed in the US.

No, this news is about a group of Zenimax employees. Zenimax is already owned by Microsoft. This is not related to Ravensoft QA union under ABK that made the news earlier this year.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#65

Post by jraph » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:43 PM UTC

IMTDb wrote: post #61

jraph wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. If I cannot live comfortably with a dream job, I'll work on something else unfortunately. And work on whatever dream I have with whatever time and energy remains, if any. Otherwise, I'd already be working on the exact things I want to work on, and earn almost nothing (for maybe a long time).

Isn't that your decision ? Why are these two situation related so differently: I quit my boring job as a dev in the banking sector to work in agriculture, hours are longer and money is tighter but it's my dream job ! (Way to go ! Keep working your dream, money is not everything !!!) I quit my boring job as a dev in the banking sector to work in the gaming industry, hours are longer and money is tighter but it's my dr…

> Isn't that your decision ?

Of course, but that's the whole point. You want to have me? Give me good working conditions! I'm probably not alone.

I would not relate these two situations differently. Agriculture or gaming industry, working conditions need to allow comfortable living, dream job or not.

I'm not saying anything about unions in my previous comment, but my position is that whether it's a dream job for you should not change anything on your decision to unionize. Not even mentioning unions, you are entitled to require good working conditions regardless.

What's more, your employer has all the incentive to provide you with comfortable living if you could be employed elsewhere with better conditions because you could change your decision to work for them at any time (your situation could change: new child, new housing, medical expense, etc; or even your tastes).

(I'm speaking about comfortable living, not the highest pay you could have somewhere else - even if still gives you some leverage)

What's different in the two situations you expose is that someone working in agriculture has (unfortunately) likely less leverage on their pay negotiation because they would less likely be able to find a place where they would be paid more (if there's no other domain they could work in).

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#66

Post by nend » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:45 PM UTC

cool_dude85 wrote: post #19

RupertWiser wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure it’s fair if the product ends up making a boat loads of money. Games are high risk but a very lucrative industry. Just look at how successful football players were in getting a slice of the pie. I’d still consider that a dream job.

Not that successful, assuming you're talking about American football. The players as a whole get a bit less than half of all revenue coming in despite being the ones to actually, you know, play the game.

That sounds a lot more successful than most other industries. I don't think software engineers, or retail employees are getting half of the business' revenue. That sounds like a pro union example.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#67

Post by coldpie » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:48 PM UTC

gyulai wrote: post #31

impish9208 wrote: post #27

The most interesting bit, IMHO, is this: > In June, Microsoft said it was open to working with any labor unions that want to organize within its workforce, making it an outlier in the tech industry. Last year Amazon.com Inc. contested workers’ efforts to unionize. Microsoft has said it would support workers at Activision Blizzard Inc. who organized last year should its $75 billion deal for th…

What else are they going to say in public? "Our plan is to engage in union-busting as much as we can legally get away with"? And what one company said is then compared to what another company actually did? Come on! This statement doesn't make MS an outlier, it's simply devoid of information content.

> What else are they going to say in public?

Microsoft recognizing the union instead of fighting tooth & nail to destroy it is genuinely novel behavior. They could refuse to recognize the union, or sue to invalidate the ballot, as many, many companies do:

"Activision Blizzard did not respond to workers’ request for recognition of a union formed by quality assurance testers at Raven Software" https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/01/25/activi...

"The NLRB found Curaleaf violated federal labor law by refusing to recognize and bargain with workers there, but the company is appealing the decision. Curaleaf had initially challenged the result of the election, which the union won by one vote, but the labor board later ruled in UFCW’s favor." https://www.gmtoday.com/news/illinois/2022-saw-a-wave-of-new...

"The decision ordered Starbucks subsidiary Siren Retail Corp. to negotiate with the new union at its Seattle Roastery restaurant... The company contested the union's victory because the government held an election by mail ballot rather than an in-person election. Starbucks plans to appeal the ruling." https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/...

"Since the workers went public with their union and began to bargain, Trader Joe’s has cut hours of union employees under the guise of the "slow season," while at the same time hiring new workers and giving them full-time schedules." http://www.fightbacknews.org/2023/1/3/minneapolis-newly-orga...

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#68

Post by jkingsbery » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:49 PM UTC

RupertWiser wrote: post #16

thunky wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job. Doesn't that make it a fair trade? Musicians generally don't make a killing either.

I’m not sure it’s fair if the product ends up making a boat loads of money. Games are high risk but a very lucrative industry. Just look at how successful football players were in getting a slice of the pie. I’d still consider that a dream job.

(I'm assuming by football you mean American football)

It's not really a fair comparison. The NFL is a monopoly, so there is no way for athletes to vote with their feet. At various times in the past, in order to negotiate the NFLPA has had to decertify in order to sue the league.

The NFL is also not a good proxy, because the average career for an NFL player is 2-3 years, and it is a physically dangerous job.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#69

Post by trashtester » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:50 PM UTC

The 70s are back. We're approaching a period of strong unions, huge labor conflicts and eventually rampant inflation. At least in Europe.

I've been thinking that the USA would be affected less than Europe, due to weak unions in most sectors, but it's certainly possible for unions to form.

Re: Microsoft workers to form company’s first union in the U.S.

#70

Post by rainsford » Wed, Jan 04, 2023, 2:51 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #47

thunky wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason for this dangerous combo? You’re working your dream job. Doesn't that make it a fair trade? Musicians generally don't make a killing either.

[flagged]

Another way of looking at it is that unions are just as much a part of a capitalist free market as entities that organize capital. Since labor is a thing that has market value, a bunch of folks getting together to figure out how to maximize their valuable asset seems just as reasonable as folks with monetary or other assets doing the same. Unless anyone's idea of a libertarian free market is also anti-corporation, unions seem like they'd be an equal part of the picture.