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Men Without Work (2016)

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Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#311

Post by lukebitts »

hallway_monitor wrote: post #127
chasd00 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women were shunned for choosing their career in my experience raising two kids women are much more looked down on for choosing family over career. My wife wanted to be a stay-at-home mom but many of her friends, and especially online, thought she was "too good for that" with some even being hostile to the very concept. If a woman has an established career and then chooses to be a stay-at-home mom she's likely to pa…

It's literally insane that people would consider working at a company to be more important than someone raising their own children instead of paying someone else to raise them for most of the day. I'm thankful the mother of my children could stay at home with them while I worked.

By your own admission you chose work instead of raising your own children. Why is that different?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#312

Post by xg15 »

lordfrito wrote: post #307
fxtentacle wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also noticed this in university and I was curious enough about it to read some history books. I believe that society never cared about young men. They were always left to fend for themselves. In my opinion, the part that's new in modern times is the transparency caused by the internet. Rags to riches, washing dishes to becoming a billionaire, ... these stories have always been extremely unlikely to happen in practi…

It's all about the social contract. Which is largely culturally dependent. Society may have never cared about young men, but (as someone else said here) the old contract with men here was build and fight wars and monogamy is enforced most will get the opportunity to raise their own family. As I get older I realize that evolution is less about me and my DNA and more about the cultural DNA of civilization. There's indi…

Yeah no, that's social darwinism. If you follow that logic through, then only the ultra-conservative cultures that turn women into breeding machines and then relentlessly indoctrinate the next generation to do the same have a chance to survive.

I also don't quite get what exactly you're criticizing. Life has become too easy, which somehow in turn makes life unbearably hard for young men, so they rightfully escape and play videogames? And therefore we should all return to the good old times where a man could seek glory and purpose in war and then (of course) return home to his everloving wife and their 15 children?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#313

Post by TexanFeller »

ianai wrote: post #172
willcipriano wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We didn't let Jordan Petersons (not that he is some sort of ideal) brand of masculinity out and now we are stuck with the Andrew Tate style. Masculinity is something that needs to be cultivated, trying to stamp it out just results in weeds.

One (not the best) way to judge a world view or policy is to simply empower it and let it play itself out. Then investigate the value add to society and itself over time. Both of your examples wound up being problematic in the fullness of time. I definitely think there’s a place in the human world for the masculine and feminine and etc. But actual bullying, which I think relates to much toxic masculinity, rightfully…

Maybe I'm reading you crosseyed, but you seem to be implying the that Jordan Peterson supports bullying. There are a few problems I have with him, but I've never heard him support that. I'm having trouble thinking of any particularly toxic male behaviors he advocates at all, so perhaps you could add examples.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#314

Post by hezralig »

pnf wrote: post #296
Karawebnetwork wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or maybe this is a win for feminism? I understand this is a passing remark, but I want to answer the question anyway. Feminism is not about making men's lives more difficult or about cheering when men struggle. Most feminists believe that gender equality can benefit everyone, including men, by creating a more just society. It is not about oppression or mistreatment of any group, not of even men. Men supporting and…

[flagged]

Essentially calling someone a NPC or otherwise providing this level of snark goes against the posting guidelines of the site. I would encourage you to reread what the comment guidelines are to enrich the community.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#315

Post by the_only_law »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #211
LewisVerstappen wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the case for the standard jobs that people with a business/english/history degree compete for. There’s so much supply of college grads. But, if you look at trade jobs (plumber, electrician, etc.) then there’s still tons of demand and they pay well. But no one wants to do that.

This almost certainly varies with the specific labor market, but what I've heard anecdotally is that there's tons of demand for experienced tradespeople, but the prospects being fresh out of school aren't great unless you have connections.

When I was in Kentucky visiting family a year or two back, there was a big billboard from a plumbing company looking for plumbers… barely paying more than the local McDonald’s at the time. Then there was a factory advertising on TV that they we’re desperate for semi skilled industrial workers… paying less than the local McDonald’s.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#316

Post by hezralig »

javajosh wrote: post #158
xg15 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends what the goals of the movements are. Most feminist discussions I've seen acknowledge that "the partriarchy hurts men as well". So highlighting issues like being discriminated as a male single parent or stay-at-home dad would probably find support in feminist spaces: Dealing with them shares the same vision as feminism does, just from the perspective of men instead of women. In contrast, many spaces that are b…

>, many spaces that are branded as "men's rights" today seem... That's the thing, that's the branding . The left (with Tucker Carlson's help) managed to get everyone to think of a man tanning his balls with any mention of men's rights. This is a major coup for leftist feminists, and a major loss for human rights. Men's rights are human rights. They are father's rights. They are worker rights. It means equal protectio…

The issue with branding isn't the lefts. The issue is that many incel communities call themselves men's rights activists.

The left, however, has a compassion problem with men. It seems like very few people actually want to engage in a healthy way in left oriented spaces whereas the right actually talks to young men and offers them advice over a range of topics that a lot of boys feel most insecure about. I think that is something that needs to be addressed otherwise grifters such as Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate will continue to infiltrate spaces of 12 year old boys, with innocuous seeming lifestyle advice.

The advice I see given most frequently to boys and young men by lefties seem irrelevant to their actual interests at best or patronizing at worst (e.g. "Don't rape/make the world a better place"). I rarely see advice on how to engage with their own masculinity in a way that isn't harmful. It feels like the gut reaction of a lot of people is to conveniently label boys as assigned evil at birth rather than to guide them and unpack how interactions with peers, girls, or society work.

This isn't feminists ruining young men, it is society failing to have adequate role models and show compassion to young me.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#317

Post by hanoz »

lordfrito wrote: post #215

My 2c. Society doesn't care about young men. They're pretty much left to fend for themselves. Hopefully they have a good family structure, and a few good male friends. Without that they're toally adrift. I learned this lesson when I got a flat tire driving across two states when I was 20. No one is willing to help. I guarantee a 20 yo woman would have no problem flagging down help, heck people would stop to help with…

Young men always did fend for themselves, but I don't think it's right say they were left to. More like they were let to do the fending that came naturally to them, fending for themselves and their families, and generally being the apex of human potential in terms of physical and mental ability. The difference now is that they are actively stifled and suppressed by society, and from a young age, much to the detriment of all concerned.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#318

Post by UncleOxidant »

pnf wrote: post #298
mint2 wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment leaves out a major important point. In the original comment, calling out the troubles of men as a win for feminism is a totally wrong premise. It was also an offhand remark at the end and really took away from the commment. feminism is unrelated to creating those cited difficulties and actually try to solve some of them. The troubles described sounded more like the product of rising inequality, reduced u…

Real men do change their own tires. As it should be. That's not unhealthy machismo, it's the healthy kind.

Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#319

Post by pnf »

UncleOxidant wrote: post #318
pnf wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real men do change their own tires. As it should be. That's not unhealthy machismo, it's the healthy kind.

Some men change their own tires. Some men call AAA when they get a flat. Some women change their own tires. Some women call AAA when they get a flat. All of these people are real.

Yes, they are all real people but masculinity means changing your own tires unless old or otherwise enfeebled. Otherwise being a man or a woman means nothing but chromosome delivery mechanisms.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#320

Post by xg15 »

hezralig wrote: post #316
javajosh wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>, many spaces that are branded as "men's rights" today seem... That's the thing, that's the branding . The left (with Tucker Carlson's help) managed to get everyone to think of a man tanning his balls with any mention of men's rights. This is a major coup for leftist feminists, and a major loss for human rights. Men's rights are human rights. They are father's rights. They are worker rights. It means equal protectio…

The issue with branding isn't the lefts. The issue is that many incel communities call themselves men's rights activists. The left, however, has a compassion problem with men. It seems like very few people actually want to engage in a healthy way in left oriented spaces whereas the right actually talks to young men and offers them advice over a range of topics that a lot of boys feel most insecure about. I think that…

Yeah, I fully agree with you there. My impression is still that is is worse online than offline (in europe though at least, I can't realistically say anything about the offline climate in the US) but this is definitly a problem.

A related impression I had is that a lot of innovation in understanding and talking about sexuality has happened in queer/LGBT spaces, but relatively little of that has swept over to hetero sexuality. There are tons of highly nuances discussions about queer and feminine sexuality and relationships. This is happening far less for hetero relationships, because traditional role models and traditional ideas of a relationship still exert a strong pressure.

It happens even less for hetero men than for hetero women in my impression. Yes, men have metric gigatons of porn available, and society is still mostly wired to male definitions of attractivity. But at the same time, the the act of actually being sexually attracted is portrayed in the media as shameful and creepy for hetero men. That sort of hypocrisy can be difficult to navigate, especially as a teenager.

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