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Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

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341–350 of 398 posts

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At Pixar, he behaved like a feudal lord because he pretty much owned the place and they relied on his money to keep the lights on. How do you mean by "behaved like a feudal lord"? Admittedly not read up on Jobs (sacrilege in this venue, I know), so I'm struggling to understand why he who pays the piper calls the tune is somehow objectionable.

Just look at the current state of Twitter if you want a further illustration of the issues with capricious feudal tech lords.

Executives paid bucketloads to come in and lead a Transformation™ can only dream about the empowerment of actually making changes that Musk is enjoying.

That job tends to be virtually impossible as companies launch a transformation then reject each individual change as "this is fine" or as a sacred cow.

If, to survive, you must change many things quickly, some decisions will be wrong, but that's why you iterate.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect the fines exceed the salaries the employees were 'owed' but are much less than the profits earned from those employees, yes.

> I suspect the fines exceed the salaries the employees were 'owed' Maybe to the specific candidates affected, but this would also have had a stifling effect on compensation across the industry too (and the resulting growth would have lasted for years). This kind of subtle wage fixing pays off in spades.

Call me crazy, but I don’t think the industry benefits from people bouncing between FAANGs. They have a massively distorted view of the world and that creates massively distorted engineers who have lost the capacity to think about solving a problem for 100,000 people instead of four billion. That’s four and a half orders of magnitude off.

The perverse incentive with the anti poaching collusion is to move from FAANG to a startup. Where you are confronted by problems involving 50 servers instead of a million. Normal problems.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Got table scraps; good table scraps, could’ve been better mind you, not especially great; enriched a few.” There, I think I know what to put in my will as how I will wish to be remembered.

>“Got table scraps; good table scraps, could’ve been better mind you, not especially great; enriched a few.” There, I think I know what to put in my will as how I will wish to be remembered. I realize we are on a forum/platform that is home to a disproportionately high number of wealthier individuals, but are you actually suggesting that $250 million annually is "table scraps"?

$250,000 annually.

... which still isn't table scraps. median income in the US is $30k.

I am a software engineer, but even I have a hard time finding deep sympathy for people complaining that they are making 10x the median salary but they should have made 20x.

Call me old-fashioned, but at the end of the day in our industry, what's "fair" is what you agreed to. None of the people in the cold-calling scandal were forbidden from making overtures to the competing companies or being hired by them. And it's real hard for me to dredge up feelings of injustice for the embarrassed sub-millionaire when so many are forced to figure out how to live on 1/10th of that money.

If you don't like your Google salary, just put your resume in at Apple. That's my advice.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Got table scraps; good table scraps, could’ve been better mind you, not especially great; enriched a few.” There, I think I know what to put in my will as how I will wish to be remembered. I realize we are on a forum/platform that is home to a disproportionately high number of wealthier individuals, but are you actually suggesting that $250 million annually is "table scraps"?

$250,000 annually. ... which still isn't table scraps. median income in the US is $30k. I am a software engineer, but even I have a hard time finding deep sympathy for people complaining that they are making 10x the median salary but they should have made 20x. Call me old-fashioned, but at the end of the day in our industry, what's "fair" is what you agreed to. None of the people in the cold-calling scandal were forb…

>$250,000 annually.

Ah crap, that's what I get for posting in the middle of the night while wide awake and sick. Thanks for the correction, and agreed - the difference between $250 million and $250k doesn't change my point.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#346
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullying implies a power imbalance. This is google we are talking about. They did poach a huge chunk of the safari team. They then did launch a competing browser and aggressively pushed that browser globally. They forked the mainline project of WebKit and created blink - for reasons relating to Chrome product roadmap. It was a big deal when they did it. But Jobs predicting this is what they were up to and calling goo…

> But Jobs predicting this is what they were up to and calling google and complaining they are poaching a whole team from Apple. Is bullying? How would you feel if you were actively looking for another job and the CEO of your company repeatedly called one the the companies that was going to give you an offer to yell at them and try to intimidate them with threats of "war" into not hiring you? That sure sounds a lot l…

Want that for non complete agreements? Not for CEOs shouting at each other.

This want “an individual looking for a job”. This was a google going after an entire team.

Honestly everyone has the bullying round the wrong way here. Steve jobs was an ass in this instance, but his actions are likely 99.9% of other CEOs actions

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#347
post #57

I don’t understand Jobs’ logic here. Is he just a bully? If Google makes such a great offer that his employee will leave him, shouldn’t he try to make a better offer, or meet with the employee instead of calling Sergey? Say he did get the offer canceled. How would this employee feel about working for a CEO that does this?

A bully? It's business. If he can get Google to not hire people just by being tough on the phone that's a win. Costs almost nothing. My father once worked at an electronics contracting firm. One of his co-workers who was in charge of purchasing parts was masterful while on the phone with suppliers. He drove a very hard bargain and often shouted and swore at suppliers to extract the best prices. Bullying or business?

Bully, as others have said. And I'll add this: if "business" has become something that excuses bullying then so much the worse for that notion of what business is.

Suppose I go up to some person I know and say "Give me $100!". They politely decline. I become aggressive and shout and swear at them. Eventually they give in, as a result of which I am $100 richer and they are $100 poorer. I take it we can all agree that this is not reasonable behaviour. (Perhaps it's even criminal; I guess it depends on the exact nature of my shouting and swearing.)

I don't see how such behaviour becomes any better when it's done in pursuit of corporate gain rather than individual gain.

You might say: ah, but it's understood that this sort of thing is part of the game: it's just what happens when people negotiate with one another. Maybe that's true, but I don't think that's any justification. In some cultures it's been "part of the game" that if two men both fancy the same woman then they fight one another and maybe one of them dies. In some cultures it's been "part of the game" that if a man dies his living wife is burned to death on his funeral pyre. Something can be customary but also harmful.

Sometimes you hear people talking about what an awful thing "capitalism" is. That's not a popular sort of opinion around these parts, but I think this is the sort of thing that fosters such opinions: the idea that nothing can be really bad if it is motivated by the search for profit. To hell with that. Yes, some things motivated by profit are bad. And yes, from what you say your father's co-worker's behaviour was one of those things.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#348
post #57

I don’t understand Jobs’ logic here. Is he just a bully? If Google makes such a great offer that his employee will leave him, shouldn’t he try to make a better offer, or meet with the employee instead of calling Sergey? Say he did get the offer canceled. How would this employee feel about working for a CEO that does this?

There’s a bit of a “gentlemen’s agreement” around poaching in a lot of industries. It’s not uncommon for execs to scold each other over it. Nobody wants to start a poaching war so there’s incentive to be polite on both sides.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#349
post #57

I don’t understand Jobs’ logic here. Is he just a bully? If Google makes such a great offer that his employee will leave him, shouldn’t he try to make a better offer, or meet with the employee instead of calling Sergey? Say he did get the offer canceled. How would this employee feel about working for a CEO that does this?

There’s a bit of a “gentlemen’s agreement” around poaching in a lot of industries. It’s not uncommon for execs to scold each other over it. Nobody wants to start a poaching war so there’s incentive to be polite on both sides.

It's awful that there is collusion between companies to prevent these workers from getting compensation based on actual market forces. If they care so much about poaching then they need compensation that strongly rewards tenure and pays enough that they won't be tempted to leave. I don't know if this behavior is illegal but I feel like it should be.

Re: Sergey Brin: Irate Call from Steve Jobs

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just got an $80 check in the mail over a class action regarding the dishwasher (appliance) I had a few years back that broke long before what should have been it’s usable life. Roughly $1000 to replace it. $80 class action settlement. Class actions are a crappy way of extracting the actual cost or damages done by a corporation and then getting those damages into tha hands of people that were on the shit side of the…

If $80 is enough to purchase, say, 2-3 years of extra warranty, then it's a fair amount.

That is a mostly reasonable comment but has one assumption and another important implication:

1) Assumption: Extended warranties are available for these appliances that would cover the expected usable lifetime of the dishwasher plus the extra purchase 2-3 year warranty.

This assumption is incorrect. Lifespan for something like this would, formally, fall under the category of durable goods. In this case, the expected lifespan of a durable goods such as a dishwasher is 10 years. The manufacture warranty falls well short of that, And a 2 to 3 extension will still not covered that time span. Of course life span of 10 years in this case would assume some potential paid maintenance by the consumer. But would not assume maintenance due to errors that would be significant enough to warrant a class action lawsuit. As such, an extended warranty would not be a sufficient substitution for problems arising from an issue that would warrant a class action lawsuit.

2) Implication: The implication of your comment is that consumers should bear the cost of errors that are sufficient enough to warrant a class action lawsuit, and pay for such errors in the form of an extended warranty.

I disagree with this. It does not seem to be a reasonable expectation as a cost the consumers should bear for systemic defects or negligence. If there’s an issue such that a class action is necessary to remedy for the issue, then a consumer should not be the one bearing the cost of that, even if it was an easy and simple matter of an extra purchase of a few dozen dollars, which as covered in the above assumption #1, would not be sufficient in any case.

All of that aside, as a matter of consumer purchasing and economic implications, I believe that consumers should have a very transparent understanding of the manufacturers warranty presented to them on point of purchase. Options for an extended warranty are nice but not necessarily required. Beyond that though, if there is an issue with a product that should reasonably have been remedied, or something that was deliberately or negligent ignored, the standard terms of the warrantee are moot. Because the manufacturer has not acted and produced a product in good faith, Either by accident or actual knowledge of the issue.

For example, a car may have a warranty that, as a standard from some manufacturers, last five years. That is the duration for which the manufacturer is obligated to correct things that went wrong during the manufacturing process. However, if there was a design flaw, and that design flaw perhaps for example rendered a car useless due to a bug in the software once the clock in the integrated circuit governing the electronic system hit a certain date, that would be a flaw that went into exceeded in terms of customer expectations and rates, boundaries of a standard warranty. We would hope such an issue would be easily rectified by some sort of software upgrade understand the age where those types of things are the norm. But if a manufacturer resisted that type of solution then I think something like a class action would be fully warranted to require the manufacturer to either render the product usable, or compensate the consumer for what might have been the remainder of the cars usable.

Within reason. Cars can be maintained to run for 100 years! But I would not expect the Ford corporation to make good on a design bug found in a model T car designed more than 100 years ago.

Exactly where the balance of time and liability may fall is probably not subject to a specific formula. It depends significantly on the type of good in the nature of the flaw that might be present in the knowledge of the manufacture in terms of how the flaw entered the product. These are not always, and probably almost always not, simple things to determine. This is where class action lawsuits enter the picture to support the collective rights of consumers, where individuals have significantly less power than the corporations producing the goods.

The problem, as I have pretty much stated, is that class action lawsuits are a very poor vehicle for remedying this sort of issue.

I am open to further discussion if you disagree with all or part of this, and may read any response, but I do have some thing of a short attention span and may not necessarily Replying to any response you were right, but I am probably likely to at least read it. Thank you for the discussion.

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