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What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

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Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 512-bit wide memory bus is currently only found inside hi-end GPU cards, AMD EPYC CPUs just went from 512-bit DDR4 to 768-bit DDR5, per socket .

… which is another testament to the fact that a wide memory bus is an attribute of server or hi-end components rather than «laptop parts» that one can throw into a bucket, stir vigorously, cook on a slow fire and get a M1 Ultra with a 1024-bit wide memory bus. I ought to have used «typically» rather than «currently» as wide memory buses were coming and going more mainstream in the server space, whilst not yet being w…

> Does that mean that 2x socketable EPYC CPU's (say, 512-bit wide each) will be able to access RAM via a 1x 1024-bit wide memory bus?

No. All recent dual-socket platforms are NUMA, meaning a CPU only has fast access to its local memory, and accessing memory attached to the other CPU socket requires going through a slower link between sockets.

NUMA-aware operating systems and applications try to avoid allocating memory on a different NUMA node than the processor cores that will be using that memory. On AMD EPYC, the internal structure of the IO die (memory controller) means it is sometimes advantageous to enable the option for the system to report more than one NUMA node per socket.

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it was sarcasm, and not meant to be taken literally.

Having to explain this to the local pedants is the most HN thing.

Your comment adds nothing to HN but mean-spiritedness.

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly surprising because I don't think there's even one piece of high-end CAx software for Mac.

Just out of interest; which ones would you consider high-end?

For CAD specifically I'd say "high end" are CATIA, NX and maybe Creo? SolidWorks and SolidEdge would form the tier below that.

For CAx in general it's difficult to say, because there's such a huge variety of software and every little niche has its own highly specialized (and usually very expensive) tools. I've never seen any of these support anything other than Windows and/or Linux. Some of them have Win32 GUIs and Linux is headless only (for running simulations), some are fully cross platform, some are Linux-only.

Most CAE engineers around here work on Linux, mainly because they prefer how easy it is to script and automate things and because the headless HPC/batch environment is of course also Linux. Meanwhile CAD and design only happens on Windows because CATIA is Windows only, like the various Autodesk tools used for CAID. From the late 80s to the early 2000s this place had a ton of UNIX workstations (SGI, HP, Sun) and even UNIX clusters (IRIX and SUPER-UX among others, the latter having virtually no representation on the internet today). There's also still IBM AIX systems around, as well as IBM mainframes. Not my department though.

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… which is another testament to the fact that a wide memory bus is an attribute of server or hi-end components rather than «laptop parts» that one can throw into a bucket, stir vigorously, cook on a slow fire and get a M1 Ultra with a 1024-bit wide memory bus. I ought to have used «typically» rather than «currently» as wide memory buses were coming and going more mainstream in the server space, whilst not yet being w…

> Does that mean that 2x socketable EPYC CPU's (say, 512-bit wide each) will be able to access RAM via a 1x 1024-bit wide memory bus? No. All recent dual-socket platforms are NUMA, meaning a CPU only has fast access to its local memory, and accessing memory attached to the other CPU socket requires going through a slower link between sockets. NUMA-aware operating systems and applications try to avoid allocating memor…

I am no stranger to NUMA since SGI days, and AMD EPYC is a ccNUMA.

If I read it correctly, 512- and 768-bit wide memory bus is available to access the socketed CPU's local memory only (which is relatively small), and access to the shared memory (which is large to very large) seems to be still via a switched Infinity Fabric memory controller.

How wide is the Infinity Fabric nowadays? I can't easily find the conclusive evidence.

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#246
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have not updated their opinions with regards to facts since 2008. It might actually be new information to that person that Apple is now the most profitable company in the existence of the human race .

Because they got lucky by being reverse acquired by NeXT. History would have taken another path without that reverse acquisition and Microsoft's money injection.

TBF, I'm still a little sour they didn't go the BeOS route. I LOVED BeOS.

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similarly priced Windows PC is expandable and upgradeable while also being faster than a Mac Studio.

. . . and much louder, and much bigger, and running Windows. Macs have never been about highest possible performance at any price point. But there is a niche where people want a very fast computer that is quit and not too ugly (and who can find their apps on macOS).

Maybe much louder and maybe much bigger. Mac Pro's aren't exactly small either.

You can build/get quiet PCs too. Theres a whole PC accessory company called be quiet! even. And there's some very nice IMO cases that look better than the Mac Studio or Pro...

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#248
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low volume simply means higher unit prices, doesn't it? The Mac Pro as an explicitly professional high-end machine is OK to be expensive. Its USP compared to fast x86 machines is that it runs macOS.

>is OK to be expensive. That is until you run the calculation when the cost of doing it are in the tens of thousands per unit. Suddenly it doesn't make much sense.

A 32-core or 64-core Threadripper Pro workstation with a few hundred GB of RAM can easily run north of $10.000 and people buy them. The price is not an issue if the computer is fast enough. The question is how fast would a hypothetical 40-core or 48-core M2 Extreme be.

Sure, Threadripper makes economical sense for AMD only when "subsidised" by EPYC/Ryzen sales and the shared chiplet architecture. But Apple has deep enough pockets for halo products. They are allegedly repurposing some of the binned/sub-par silicon into internal server hardware anyway.

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#249
I'm seeing a ton of "nobody would but a $10.000 Mac Pro when Mac Studio exists" opinions here. But, like... why?

Threadripper Pro exists and as far as I can tell, certain industries are practically begging AMD to keep updating it. A system with 32-core TR Pro and a few hundred gigs of RAM is easily $10k. With a 64-core CPU, you are probably closer to $15k. If a Mac Pro can give you 40-60 cores, 128-512GB of RAM plus a powerful GPU for $10-20k, its certainly niche, but not dead on arrival.

I think the main issue is that while AMD can "justify" TR Pro by having disaggregated compute and IO chiplets, Apple does not. AMD can just "print" as many CPU cores as it likes (within the power budget), and then slap on a different IO tile depending on what product it's making.

Currently, Apple isn't doing that. Furthermore, they put themselves into an even bigger corner by gluing their CPU and GPU onto one die. Most professional tasks are fine with a monster CPU and no/little GPU, or a monster GPU and an ok CPU. Adding PCIe with support for GPUs would help with that. For memory heavy tasks, you could add CXL memory expansions. But that then adds a new problem: what dies would Apple fab for this product?

With M1, there were essentially 2-3 dies: The power efficient M1, the M1 Max/Ultra with the interposer, and M1 Pro (there were rumours some Pros are just failed Max-es with a part of the chip cut off, but afaik nobody was able to verify this, so 3 dies it is). For M2, we have only seen the power efficient die so far. If M2 Extreme would be 4x M2 Max, then the previous strategy could work. But if Apple wants PCIe or CXL memory modules on M2 Extreme, they have to put it on all of their Max (and maybe Pro) dies as well. Even though these will be in laptops/all-in-ones that won't use any of that. In other words, a ton of analog circuitry that's a complete waste of silicon. The only other option is to fab special dies for M2 Extreme, which might have been the plan, and what probably made it a very bad ROI.

It's kind of like Sapphire Rapids: SR is certainly fast for what it's doing, but it's super expensive compared to EPYC and less scalable exactly because you need different dies to implement different SKUs (SR is monolithic up to afaik ~20 cores and the "chiplets" only appear above that, plus the IO you get depends on the chiplets). And SR doesn't even include a GPU...

Finally, Apple's GPUs don't appear to be really scaling as great as they were hoping. I have yet to see a real-world M1 Ultra review that wouldn't end on a "it's +20-50% more performance for +100% price" note. The CPU cluster seems to be doing much better. But by tying four of them together for M2 Extreme, people who need CPU would have to pay for the whole thing, and people who need GPU would be probably left disappointed.

My personal "best bet" would be to just keep releasing a power efficient "consumer" die, but disaggregate everything on the "pro level": A single CPU-heavy "Pro" die with a bit of GPU and a bit of IO, then a GPU-heavy die that slaps onto that to make the Max, and then an IO-only die for the Mac Pro mixed and matched with a combination of CPU and GPU dies. I wouldn't be shocked if this was the plan for M3/M4, the question is if the packaging technology will be there in time (and economical; wink wink Intel).

Re: What’s Left in the Apple Silicon Transition

#250
post #239
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mac are what sustained Apple pre- and post-Jobs, when it WASN'T YET about "unprofitable vanity products". If the iPhone goes down, the Macs are exactly what Apple still has going for them...

The Apple before being reverse acquired by NeXT was at the edge of bankruptcy, so Macs hardly sustained them back them to the point that they even got Microsoft's money to keep going.

They had sustained them for close to 20 years before that point of "edge of bankruptcy", and they soon grew into a great business post the colored Ive's iMac. It's only the iPod's phenomenal success that obscured their Mac unit, but the iMac and Powerbooks were already a big success when Jobs returned.

As for the "edge of bankruptcy" was due to a series of bad business decisions, not the Mac line itself. If anything, the Mac line and Mac customers was the only thing they still had going for them. It was the OS that was old and tired in an era of good enough Windows, Apple wasting resources in Copland, Newton and other endeavors without results, the blunder of allowing clones that ate into their Mac lunch, and so on.

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