As I can’t find the book or the data it references, can someone more knowledgeable comment on the validity (and interpretation) of the data?
Men Without Work (2016)
91–100 of 471 posts
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
>in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, in reality it's a pit of toxicity. Indeed, but so is the equivalent feminism subreddit (try "r/askafeminist" for example). And yet "women's rights" don't have the same stigma as "men's rights". What explains this asymmetry? Why is it some movements get defined by their extremists, and others don't? >: a lot of this societal pressure against men bein…
Is it really that hard to understand the difference between a historically oppressed minority and the minority that historically was doing the oppressing?
> the minority that historically was doing the oppressing?
Is it so difficult to realize those oppressors are dead and these men weren’t alive in 1920?
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#93I think "Men Without Work" is a euphemism. The problem is: - Men without Skills in-demand-- skills which are at least somewhat fulfilling & interesting to those men. Solution: Research labor data for careers in high demand, then cross reference those careers with skills a person is interested in. Then identify resources & a roadmap for learning those skills. And sit down, and put the time in to learn & apply those sk…
There seems to be a duality among people where some people find satisfaction working with their minds, others with their hands.
I know it's a controversial view but I truly believe it: some people just want to see something physically accomplished at the end of a day's work. A roof shingled, a road graded, a cabinet hung....
When society pivots and those manual jobs go overseas, just telling everyone they're better off going into tech anyway is not going to fly.
Perhaps those career assessment test or whatever I took in high school had some validity after all. For better or worse, I understand shop classes are gone now from high school. I took a wood shop class (and still make things from wood to this day). Metal shop class was offered (stick welding was sort of the pinnacle of that class), shop class (where you worked on cars that the teachers brought in — always likely a sort of side business the teacher had going.)
My daughter went to Norway as an exchange student and it sounds as though Scandinavian schools still have some idea of a vocational track in public school education. While we may have sent most of the factory jobs overseas we still construct, wire, and plumb houses here, still build roads and bridges.
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#94I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…
> society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent that isn't a woman
True, but I think there’s an issue with expectations. Biases don’t change overnight. It sucks, but everyone could use a little pragmatism IMO.
TBH I’m not sure this bias will change very much anyways, as I don’t think the math supports it. If anything we’ve moved to double income, not to a role reversal.
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
>in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, in reality it's a pit of toxicity. Indeed, but so is the equivalent feminism subreddit (try "r/askafeminist" for example). And yet "women's rights" don't have the same stigma as "men's rights". What explains this asymmetry? Why is it some movements get defined by their extremists, and others don't? >: a lot of this societal pressure against men bein…
Is it really that hard to understand the difference between a historically oppressed minority and the minority that historically was doing the oppressing?
Ok, so when do historical victims stop being victims and stop being treated like victims?
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Feminists spend much more time lying about men's issues Not sure if there’s a name for this fallacy but you see it all the time: attributing the opinions/actions of an extreme minority to a whole group. No denying there are some feminists about there spending all their time lying about men’s issues but feminists as a whole don’t. Same applies almost every time someone says “leftists”, “the right wing” etc etc etc
What do you call the fallacy, which I have seen increasingly online, where someone defines something as being an "extreme minority" when it actually isn't, and then claims the other person committed a fallacy because of that?
OP appears to be committing the "motte and bailey" (fallacy?) himself.
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#97What a coincidence, just yesterday I watched his interview with the Hoover Institution. It's on youtube.
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#98I think "Men Without Work" is a euphemism. The problem is: - Men without Skills in-demand-- skills which are at least somewhat fulfilling & interesting to those men. Solution: Research labor data for careers in high demand, then cross reference those careers with skills a person is interested in. Then identify resources & a roadmap for learning those skills. And sit down, and put the time in to learn & apply those sk…
> Their problem is that they refuse to put together a well formatted resume, apply to jobs, and accept that they may have to start at the bottom of the career ladder.
I see this a lot. Younger people who have been led to believe by incendiary reddit and twitter rants that everyone lived like some Leave it to Beaver sitcom in the near past and they should be able to own a house and support a family at 19 on a McDonald's salary, and anything short of that there's no point participating because it's not fair. There are a lot of legitimate grievances in there regarding stagnating real wages and student debt etc. but for many it's just an excuse.
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
Two big things stick out in all of this to me... 1) There's the idea that one parent does not work for a company. This is hard for a lot of men and women to handle. A lot is put into the idea that adults need to be part of the economic productivity cycle or you're failing. Stay at home dad's are looked down on by others a lot due to this. It happens to many stay at home mom's, too. Think about it. If both parents wor…
Yes and no, I think. I agree in abstract, because I am sure it is a factor, but I will give my personal anecdata. Covid was a stroke of good luck for me, because I effectively was able to be a father and work from home at the same time ( 1st year kid - and she slept on a tight schedule ). And I will admit it was incredibly fulfilling ( albeit tiring ). We are a dual income household and above average in terms of inco…
> "Do I want my daughter to be a plumber? No."
How many people want their son to be a plumber? Likely not many of the people on HN.
Does a lot of this view have to do with what people think of jobs like plumbers?
Re: Men Without Work (2016)
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation. Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffer…
> Women were shunned for choosing their career in my experience raising two kids women are much more looked down on for choosing family over career. My wife wanted to be a stay-at-home mom but many of her friends, and especially online, thought she was "too good for that" with some even being hostile to the very concept. If a woman has an established career and then chooses to be a stay-at-home mom she's likely to pa…
And if she had picked career, she would also have payed that price.
Men only pay it when choosing stay-at-home dads.