Men Without Work (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#21

Post by afavour » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:42 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #13

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation…

> The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact.

I'm conflicted about that. Not denying that what you've said is true but I specifically chose the term "red pilled" because there are huge toxic (predominantly online) communities that are openly misogynistic. e.g. in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, in reality it's a pit of toxicity. Some of the frustration there is justified (family law definitely seems biased against fathers) but the result is not positive.

I'd also add: a lot of this societal pressure against men being accepted as stay at home parents comes from men.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#22

Post by jnmandal » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

adolph wrote: post #12

In the transition to a post-scarcity world it may be that this crisis represents a transition in which people's mental wellbeing is less moored to earnings and oriented more toward value.

Are you implying we are approaching a post-scarcity world now?

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#23

Post by williamdclt » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

For the record, I agree with you and your argument is aligned with everybody I know who consider themselves feminists. It's part of what's meant by the now-memesque "patriarchy hurts everyone".

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#24

Post by steve_adams_86 » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:43 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

I had this exact experience as well. Returning to my career was strange. People were half glad to hear that I prioritized my family, and half disconcerted that I’d set my career aside. Our culture wants men to be extremely productive and committed to wealth generation.

Women are increasingly treated this way too though. Women were shunned for choosing their career. Now if they choose family, their career still suffers. How can they win? At least men have a clear expectation from society. In many parts of North America, it’s increasingly true that women don’t have the freedom not to work.

We have a serious problem here. It doesn’t strike me as a problem of gender roles so much as cultural priorities (perhaps at the core of this is the pursuit of wealth and growth over focusing on family). I was as capable as my wife in caring for our son so that wasn’t a problem. The problem was that anyone ever saw something wrong with that picture, I suppose.

We also took an enormous financial hit in order for her to continue working, because there was a very real concern than her career would suffer beyond repair if she took off, but I’d presumably be able to return fairly easily with my decade or so of software development experience. This happily turned out to be true. But still, what a strange situation to have to navigate.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#25

Post by gjsman-1000 » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:45 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #13

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation…

Sharing my thoughts, a recent idiom I ran across that I increasingly find useful in situations like this is "two things can be true at once."

There can be people who are extremely misogynistic - but they can also have completely valid concerns and grievances that make them feel that way. "They might be idiots at best, but they might have decent reasons why they got there." Just ask any dad who has lost his children, wife, and property to an actually-false claim of domestic abuse. Ignoring those grievances, under the hope of trying to avoid giving them any respect, I believe risks actually increasing the number of misogynists because it doesn't address the underlying hurt that many of them may be experiencing, or the cause that will keep repeating itself.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#26

Post by wpietri » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:45 PM UTC

Since the Wikipedia article is so bare, I'm concerned that this discussion will mainly be a vibes-based shouting match based on the title. In hopes of averting that, some meatier content:

A piece from the book's author:

https://time.com/4504004/men-without-work/

Some reviews and discussions:

https://www.nybooks.com/online/2016/09/15/americas-lost-work...

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/10/11/13176948/labor-forc...

https://archive.ph/20170311160320/https://www.ft.com/content...

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#27

Post by afavour » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:47 PM UTC

fullshark wrote: post #14

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

I think this book is probably more about men who aren't working and are instead doing nothing productive. Raising children wouldn't count.

Yeah I was kind of “yes, and”-ing the book topic. Women being out of work isn’t seen as such a crisis because so many are actually “working raising families. My point is that the same opportunity ought to be available to men, too.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#28

Post by LightHugger » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:49 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #21

javajosh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation…

> The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm conflicted about that. Not denying that what you've said is true but I specifically chose the term "red pilled" because there are huge toxic (predominantly online) communities that are openly misogynistic. e.g. in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, i…

Just like how a lot of the societal pressure causing womens issues comes from women. There's no difference between genders in this aspect. Though for some reason, i see some feminists trying to blame men exclusively for men's problems. I have never seen a man blaming women for all women's issues the same way.

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#29

Post by eropple » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:49 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #21

javajosh wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you need to apologize and explain why you care about issues that might affect men is telling in and of itself. The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm a pretty hardcore liberal and I I'm totally astonished on a daily basis at the hate in vitriol directed at men that go without comment, let alone castigation…

> The American Zeitgeist around gender issues is distorted to dehumanize men and alienate anyone who even dares to recognize this fact. I'm conflicted about that. Not denying that what you've said is true but I specifically chose the term "red pilled" because there are huge toxic (predominantly online) communities that are openly misogynistic. e.g. in theory I'd like and participate in the "men's rights" subreddit, i…

[flagged]

Re: Men Without Work (2016)

#30

Post by licebmi__at__ » Tue, Jan 03, 2023, 3:50 PM UTC

afavour wrote: post #8

I'm very far from a red-pilled anti-feminist but I do think this is a hugely overlooked problem. Perhaps too much of an aside but I was lucky enough to be able to take an extended parental leave when my child was born, being a "stay at home dad" for the best part of a year. It was incredibly hard work, incredibly rewarding but also a real eye opener at how society still doesn't know what to do with a full-time parent…

I’m still surprised that people are aware of the drawbacks that a patriarcal society with strong gender division where those who don’t conform are usually punished, and somehow identify with “redpilled antifeminists” who want a traditional society and attack the group which historically has been criticizing and questioning gendered roles.