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PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

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Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TOS mean as much as your small claims court judge decides it means. They had a professional appraisal on the violin that said it was authentic. Paypal has its TOS saying they can call anything counterfeit and their TOS says they can't be held liable for it. Sorry it's a judges job to say if you can or can't be held liable for your business terms and practices.

You can put that you own the customers soul in a tos or other ridiculous claims, but It will never upheld. This won't hold up in court.

caught -> court: oddest typo I've seen yet

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#182
post #30

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10... http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Lab... http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=100000000142981... Paypal TOS Covers counterfeit items: 10.1 b Further, if you lose a [Significantly Not as Described] Claim because we, in our sole dis…

How is this legal?

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#183
post #67
post #30

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10... http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Lab... http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=100000000142981... Paypal TOS Covers counterfeit items: 10.1 b Further, if you lose a [Significantly Not as Described] Claim because we, in our sole dis…

That's really shitty. It would be interesting to know what sole discretion or reasonable belief constitutes. I doubt ebay/paypal sent experts to 'investigate', they more likely said "If you, the buyer, believe it's counterfeit because of , then it is. Seller won't sue anyway."

1. Get a greedy lawyer

2. Sue Paypal for negligence.

3. Show up any conversation with buyer stating that the piece was priceless and the sale was only symbolic because he proved that he would keep the violin soul alive by playing it.

4. Add psychological trauma and other stuff to step 2.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#184
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest way to destroy the value of numismatic coin would probably be to clean it. A coin at the highest level of grading would be "destroyed" (lowered to a less valuable rating) by simply picking it up outside of its sealed, graded holder. There are plenty of ways to destroy it physically (throw it in a forge, bend it with pliers, etc). I'm a bit more concerned that a scammer wouldn't destroy the coin per se, bu…

Would it be trivial for someone to dispute the authenticity of the coin, receive PayPal's request for its destruction, photograph something that looked like a mangled coin, and then essentially get the coin for free?

Lets do this?! We could buy anything, dispute the validity of said item, send them pictures of the destruction (keeping the original) and PROFIT! All these years of collecting underpants have paid off.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#185
post #30

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10... http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Lab... http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=100000000142981... Paypal TOS Covers counterfeit items: 10.1 b Further, if you lose a [Significantly Not as Described] Claim because we, in our sole dis…

How is this legal?

[deleted]

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#186
post #147
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can assure you they do not do it to earn interest. PayPal loses far more money on chargebacks, fraud, payment reversals, dispute resolutions, etc. than it makes on a measly 21 days of interest. Further, "hold backs" (aka "reserves") are very common in bank-operated credit card merchant accounts.

So why didn't they do that from day 1 when i opened my account 8 years ago?

Because it's not very user-friendly.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#187
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The easiest way to destroy the value of numismatic coin would probably be to clean it. A coin at the highest level of grading would be "destroyed" (lowered to a less valuable rating) by simply picking it up outside of its sealed, graded holder. There are plenty of ways to destroy it physically (throw it in a forge, bend it with pliers, etc). I'm a bit more concerned that a scammer wouldn't destroy the coin per se, bu…

Would it be trivial for someone to dispute the authenticity of the coin, receive PayPal's request for its destruction, photograph something that looked like a mangled coin, and then essentially get the coin for free?

Considering the amount of money to be made, I think it's reasonable. I present the following:

1) Get the original (say, $3000 coin) carefully out of the holder - then smash the holder with a hammer.

2) Find a replica of that year coin, which really is a fake, for $10-$50. Scratch it up, bend it, whatever.

3) Send the original coin back for grading to be certified with a new graded coin holder and serial number, to be sold for $3000.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a reason not to sue? That's $2,500 in losses. And the principle of it...

The above clause of the TOS is the reason not to sue. The seller agreed to a TOS that says that if PayPal decides that it is counterfeit, they refund the money and the item is destroyed, without any restriction on what care PayPal has to take to decide that it's counterfeit. So PayPal acted within the terms of their agreement.

Generally speaking, unilateral provisions in contracts render the contract unenforceable by the party they benefit. The fundamental principal behind common law contracts is the "bargain principal". There must be some "consideration" paid by both parties before a contract is valid (I will give you this, in consideration for your giving me that). A clause in a contract that said, "we have the right to breach this contract at any time we choose" would render the contract void, because there is no "bargin" involved. Such types of promise (a promise to give something with nothing in return) are called "charity" and are not enforced by law. You can tell Jery Lewis, "I promise to give you $20 at your next telethon", but he can't sue you if you don't pay.

So... that means that the either:

1) The provision in the contract can't mean "we have the write to breach whenever we feel like it"

2) or, that the TOS are unenforceable.

The wording in the TOS is designed specifically to not mean "we can breach whenever we want", but instead to mean "if you sell counterfeit goods through our service we will destroy them and not refund your money".

The words "we ... reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit" were deliberately chosen for this purpose. The fact that paypal can use its sole discretion just tips the scales in their favor. If they have reasonable evidence that something is fake, then they can destroy it, even if they haven't done due diligence to prove it's a fake.

The question comes down to wether or not paypal had reason to believe the item was counterfeit.

Their are certain cases where only a customer complaint would be sufficient to establish a "reasonable believe".

For example, if Picasso bought a painting that was said to be a Picasso original, and he called paypal and said "I didn't paint this, it's a fake", they would definetly be within their rights if they distroyed it, even if further investigation could have revealed he was lying.

In this particular case... you could potentially argue that the customer's complaint was in no way sufficient for paypal to reach a "reasonable believe". This does make the whole thing wildly open to judicial interpretation, however.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're wrong. Nobody is forcing you to use Paypal, you accept payment that way because it's convenient for both buyer and seller. You could advertise on Craigslist, but would you feel comfortable if someone says, 'I will send you a check, please ship to this address'? No, because the check may be bad and you could have a big financial headache. Likewise, many buyers would not be comfortable sending a check or tak…

I'm pretty sure PayPal charges fees for the convenience of getting your money instantly, which means nobody is expecting charity here as you seem to be implying. Thus, PayPal is not bearing all the risk, indeed they are being paid to carry the risk. I have a merchant account and it clears to my bank account next day, there is no such 21-day float period, which might be more common when you are being paid by a vendor…

Their fees are cheap compared to the consignment fees of an antique or other specialty dealer. That said, I am looking at it in the specific context of Paypal as a transaction-processing arm of eBay, an auction brokerage. I don't know if this violin was sold on eBay or through some private sale, but I suspect the former since private buyers usually negotiate terms in advance. They are somewhat exploitative, but on the other hand I consider the buyer's right to get what they paid for just as important as the seller's right to get the cash they sold their goods for. Having been on both sides of the transaction fairly frequently their fees and policies seem fair enough to me, but obviously YMMV.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#190
post #98
post #96

This makes me sick. Ordering to destroy? That makes absolutely NO sense to me. If someone told me this story in person, I would have thought that it was a joke. Paypal is right up there with godaddy on the list of worst tech companies.

The picture of the shredded violin causes me pain verging on the physical. It's probably best we don't know the identity of the buyer.

I hope the seller takes the buyer to small claims court. They should be forced to pay for a replacement violin. "but PayPal told me to do it" should not be a valid defense.
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