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Private and Public Mastodon

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Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#151
post #129
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes: there are reasons ordinary users might prefer Mastodon to Twitter; as I said: * You can write full posts in Mastodon * You can own your own data, run your own service, or select from a variety of hosted options * The ecosystem encourages good third-party clients and tooling The tooling isn't there, but then, I don't think anybody expected the events of the last few months, so I'm inclined to give it a quarter or…

What about the inherent bubble-y nature of Mastodon? Do you see it as beneficial to have a series of large groups of balkanized servers optionally interconnected rather than a general public network everyone contributes to. I hate the label of "public square", because Twitter should already be opt-in in terms of which content you see based on who you follow, even though it's one big network (ignoring the @jack era AI…

Human interaction is inherently bubble-y.

Nobody wants to get shouted at by people preaching stuff they don't like or feel harassed by all day long, so we seek together in social groups that by and large are united at least along some axes of interests, and avoid too much talk of the topics we know are controversial within those the groups.

Some of us then sometimes seek broader forums to try to spread our groups ideas. But a lot of people actively avoid those kind of situations. Many others use different identities in different groups because they don't mesh well.

"Balkanized" servers are only balkanized to the extent people wants them to be (yes, admins can ride roughshod over users, but users can vote with their feed and migrate their accounts and follows elsewhere). Most people want to be widely federated. Some want forums where they can say things nobody else wants to listen to or wants to self-isolate (e.g. Truth Social, Counter Social and Gab all run - or at least ran, not kept up - Mastodon, but either don't federate at all and/or are widely blocked)

> A key difference in Twitter vs Mastodon UX is that users would have to make different accounts for each "Balkan country" server they join. If one server blacklists or is blacklisted they won't be able to participate in others. And this has implications well beyond US polarized politics once it reaches global scale.

If you want to participate in things so offensive to so many people that they're mutually blocking each other, then yes you either have to do that or find an instance that haven't defederated either. Or host/rent your own and not block anything other than what you, yourself choose.

With Mastodon you have that choice. With Twitter you risk getting outright banned site-wide.

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#152
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about the inherent bubble-y nature of Mastodon? Do you see it as beneficial to have a series of large groups of balkanized servers optionally interconnected rather than a general public network everyone contributes to. I hate the label of "public square", because Twitter should already be opt-in in terms of which content you see based on who you follow, even though it's one big network (ignoring the @jack era AI…

I perceive this to be the biggest critique people have of Mastodon and I simply don't care about it at all; it just passes directly over my head. My guess is that it's a consequence of people mostly "belonging" to community servers, with defined (and evolving) community norms. Blog hosts didn't have those, and I don't think Mastodon/ActivityPub servers will for long either. It's going to get easier to run your own se…

> and there are going to be hosting providers that do that work for you

There are hosting providers doing that work for you, though several of them are overwhelmed too at the moment. There'll be more.

I run my own, and it's not hard but it's certainly still too much hassle for casual users, so I think there's definitely space for more hosting services.

> I'm not bullish on "the fediverse" as a federation of communities with some global norms

Yeah, a lot of these norms will collapse in the face of a broader user base that want Twitter 2.0, and don't care about a lot of the ideological stuff going on with Mastodon and other current Fediverse software.

> But having actually used it now, I think the underlying technology is a lot smarter than I gave it credit for, and I think it stands a decent chance of being important.

Treating ActivityPub w/WebFinger as a globallly addressable signed pubsub queuing system in itself is very interesting. You can build so much more on top of that than "just" "Twitter 2.0" or Mastodon. Of course there are some examples of that, like Pixelfed, but I think we're just scratching the surface of reimagining services on top of a layer like that.

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#153
post #119

> People should be able to converse without their every word landing on a permanent global un-erasable indexed public record. Call me crazy. Sure, and they should use Signal instead of publishing their conversations and then getting mad when they turn out to be publicly available.

I do think I should be able to post something publicly and not have it indexed by search engines. If someone screencaps it or copy/pastes it fine but the original should live on the dark web. This is one of those things that tech needs think is pointless when in reality opting out of search indexing drops your visibility to nothing which is good for making sure your posts don’t “break containment.” Unless you’re a pu…

If it's readable, it's indexable. There's no way around that. I'd say there's no technical way around that, but there's also no realistic legal protection against that - at most you can limit public search engines.

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#154
But wait, isn't Google already indexing the Fediverse? Public posts are available through http without auth... so I find it hard to understand the opposition from the admins described in this article. What am I missing?

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#155
Only architecture astronauts care about the fediverse, and by extension how search works on Mastodon. Normal people just wanted a Twitter clone when Twitter started to feel icky or doomed. It doesn’t speak to the platform’s long term growth if basic functionality like this is controversial, especially if it leads to fragmentation. There’s obviously some value to conservatism here - I suspect for most people, Twitter was feature complete years ago and didn’t need more doodads. But search was certainly a core part of that.

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#156

But wait, isn't Google already indexing the Fediverse? Public posts are available through http without auth... so I find it hard to understand the opposition from the admins described in this article. What am I missing?

Google is indeed already indexing the Fediverse. A Fediverse long-timer I've talked to justified this by saying that Mastodon is "more like speaking" and websites are "more like publishing". However, I pointed out that IndieWeb and influencers exist too.

Personally, I am unconvinced by the long-timer's argument. I believe that if you are against Fediverse crawlers ethically, you must be against web crawlers as well, and indeed I spent months without Google, DDG, or any other crawler-based search -- StackOverflow tags, Wikipedia and bookmarks were my friends. It was an enlightening experience, but I now hold the reverse position.

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#157
I remember a few months ago some people were already sharpening their pitchforks because Eugen implemented a change that would make local search results a bit more relevant if the instance wasn't using Elasticsearch.

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#158
post #155

Only architecture astronauts care about the fediverse, and by extension how search works on Mastodon. Normal people just wanted a Twitter clone when Twitter started to feel icky or doomed. It doesn’t speak to the platform’s long term growth if basic functionality like this is controversial, especially if it leads to fragmentation. There’s obviously some value to conservatism here - I suspect for most people, Twitter…

Mastodon isn't a public company or a VC-funded startup. It doesn't need perpetual user growth, nor, I suspect, do many of its current users or developers particularly want that. At most it just needs a critical mass of people who are interested in what it has to offer so that it doesn't die as a project/community.

I don't use Mastodon (or Twitter) but it seems to me like Mastodon was never really intended to be a pure Twitter clone, and what "normal people" want in this regard isn't really relevant. What's the point in trying to emulate a platform that feels icky and doomed, anyway?

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#159
post #119

> People should be able to converse without their every word landing on a permanent global un-erasable indexed public record. Call me crazy. Sure, and they should use Signal instead of publishing their conversations and then getting mad when they turn out to be publicly available.

I do think I should be able to post something publicly and not have it indexed by search engines. If someone screencaps it or copy/pastes it fine but the original should live on the dark web. This is one of those things that tech needs think is pointless when in reality opting out of search indexing drops your visibility to nothing which is good for making sure your posts don’t “break containment.” Unless you’re a pu…

> I do think I should be able to post something publicly and not have it indexed by search engines.

There's a preference in settings, but it just adds your profile to robots.txt. Meaning that if someone boosts your post and doesn't have that configured...

Re: Private and Public Mastodon

#160

I am saddened but not surprised at the lack of nuance in these comments. I also think the author is missing some things. We take it for granted now that the public-ness of online content is very nearly binary: it's either public, and therefore hyper-public, globally accessible, indexed, searchable, publicly archived forever, or it is private. But this binary is artificial. Why can't we have things in-between? Perhaps…

> The fact bad actors can't be stopped is a strange excuse as well. The world we live in is held together by the fact that most people, most of the time, act in good faith...

The problem is, the effort required to index the whole of Mastodon is basically trivial, compared to wiretapping even a few locations, in the man-power, cost and ease of avoiding detection. With that in mind, either you never share posts publicly, or you have to assume it'll be recorded somewhere even if you don't want it.

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