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PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

regretsy.com

171–180 of 303 posts

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#171
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He should care because if he did that I'd take his sorry ass to court for destruction of MY property.

You sound angry now. Imagine how angry you'll be when you lose your internet tough-guy lawsuit. https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-c... 10.1 b Further, if you lose a SNAD Claim because we, in our sole discretion, reasonably believe the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal S…

(a) It sounds like Paypal made no attempt to verify the counterfeit claim at all, and would not have been qualified to do so even if they had examined the item themselves. Arguing that they had any sort of reasonable belief that it was a counterfeit would last about five seconds in a small claims court.

(b) Paypal's terms are probably irrelevant here anyway unless they owned either the money or the instrument. If they don't have a valid legal claim on them, then they have no right to tell anyone else what to do with them, regardless of any document their lawyers write.

(c) Even if the terms are relevant, this policy is so obviously unreasonable that you can't assume any court is going to automatically uphold the contractual term.

(d) This is all to protect Paypal, not the buyer. Notwithstanding any of Paypal's legalese, and obviously without knowing all the details, it seems very possible that a court would hold that a contract of sale existed here between the buyer and seller directly, and that as such the buyer who destroyed the instrument but did not pay for it is either in breach of contract (and thus owes the money anyway) or guilty of theft/criminal damage/other similar offences (in which case they are potentially in bigger trouble and might actually have police showing up on their doorstep, though even in the best case for them if the violin was as specified then they have conveniently accepted what a valid level of compensation would be).

(e) The fact that the destruction was done at Paypal's request is probably irrelevant following such a finding, other than to the extent that Paypal may have some sort of indirect liability for the damages in a civil suit, or that whichever idiot working for them sent the request might even be regarded as an accessory to a crime if someone in authority wanted to make a point. Actually, I imagine that would shake their staff down pretty quickly, since no amount of contractual anything from Paypal's legal team is going to protect the staff personally in that sort of situation.

Standard disclaimers apply: I'm not a lawyer, but I have found that if you actually get your day in court then usually the court has some amount of common sense and a much smaller amount of tolerance for lawyers obviously trying to intimidate other citizens with legalese. Internet tough-guy defences pointing at tricky legalese don't always end well, if the Internet tough-guy law suit actually reaches a court room. It's usually the cost/inconvenience/lack of understanding of bringing a small-scale lawsuit that protects the companies from wronged individuals, not the power of their obviously one-sided form contracts.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how do you destroy a coin?

The easiest way to destroy the value of numismatic coin would probably be to clean it. A coin at the highest level of grading would be "destroyed" (lowered to a less valuable rating) by simply picking it up outside of its sealed, graded holder. There are plenty of ways to destroy it physically (throw it in a forge, bend it with pliers, etc). I'm a bit more concerned that a scammer wouldn't destroy the coin per se, bu…

Would it be trivial for someone to dispute the authenticity of the coin, receive PayPal's request for its destruction, photograph something that looked like a mangled coin, and then essentially get the coin for free?

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the law is wrong. I mean, let's drop the literal-mindedness for a second. It's my money. They are holding it hostage. I want it back. They should not be allowed to do this. Still nothing wrong with the situation, in your opinion?

No, you're wrong. Nobody is forcing you to use Paypal, you accept payment that way because it's convenient for both buyer and seller. You could advertise on Craigslist, but would you feel comfortable if someone says, 'I will send you a check, please ship to this address'? No, because the check may be bad and you could have a big financial headache. Likewise, many buyers would not be comfortable sending a check or tak…

This is a terribly misleading response. You might as well point out that we're not forced to use banks and therefore they shouldn't be regulated either. The logic simply does not follow.

In fact, he is not wrong to expect that reasonable regulation be imposed on a company which borrows and handles funds. Paypal's system is highly unusual in comparison to other comparable banking services and is predictably often the target of these types of complaints.

Florian says the law is wrong, that paypal should be regulated as a bank. In response, you reject regulation in general. His position makes a lot more sense than your own.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#174
post #75

It seems to be, that most of PayPal's PR blunders result from heavily regulation of stupid employees. I know we don't tolerate personal insults here on HN, but those of you who have spoken to as many PayPal reps as I have, will probably agree that there are few other ways to describe them. I guess their logic is: "If we can hire dumb people for less money, and regulate them so they can't make mistakes, we can save mo…

When faced with incompetence, always ask for another rep. Two employees at the same company will often give you two different experiences. This is true of all the contact I've had with AT&T, and others, and no doubt the same is true at Paypal. Just don't even waste your time if you can tell the person you are talking to does not comprehend your complaint, just hang up and call back and keep calling back until you rea…

Very true. We had noticed that any time we had a poor experience with tech support at our main web host, it was the same person. We've turned to either disconnecting chats until we get someone else or (where possible) requesting others specifically by name. The difference can be huge.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#175
post #110
post #30

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10... http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Lab... http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=100000000142981... Paypal TOS Covers counterfeit items: 10.1 b Further, if you lose a [Significantly Not as Described] Claim because we, in our sole dis…

I would ask for proof of their 'reasonable belief' that it was counterfeit; If they don't provide, sue them for breaking TOS.

At their "sole discretion" means they don't really need a reason.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#176
Disclaimer - I used to work at eBay but my work was not in any way connected with policies on counterfeits or Paypal. So the following is my speculation only.

While this specific case does sound awful, I'd bet that eBay/Paypal's draconian policies towards counterfeits is a result of number of lawsuits that designer labels have filed in the past against eBay. It would likely be impossible for eBay/Paypal to physically examine every item that is claimed to be counterfeit, so the blanket policy which lets them claim in court that they are doing everything reasonable to prevent counterfeit items being traded on eBay. Again, this particular case does suck, but honestly I think the real villains are the Louis Vittons of the world.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#177

In the other recent paypal PR debacle I don't think paypal deserved the level of vitriol that was leveled at them. Regretsy screwed up by operating in a way that would have caused most banks to shut them down, but it was horrible customer service on paypal's part that turned it into a disaster. For this I would like to hear more details of the story but I don't see how paypal could possibly be in the right if the fac…

Thousands of sites act in exactly the same way Regretsy acted. PayPal's policies allowed that sort of use, indeed it seems to me to be most of where the use comes from. Whether a bank would have allowed that sort of thing or not isn't relevant, PayPal allowed it, then some employee decided they shouldn't.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's legal because PayPal is technically not a bank.

Technically, paypal is a bank: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal#Bank_status It depends on where you are, in the EU it definitely is a bank.

Not that being a bank means much in the EU, see the situation in quite a few member states.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#179
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TOS mean as much as the lawyer you have. PayPal can't get you to agree to things that are illegal, and improperly designating counterfeits would/should qualify. Especially when PayPal is a defacto monopoly. tl;dr lawyer up.

TOS mean as much as your small claims court judge decides it means. They had a professional appraisal on the violin that said it was authentic. Paypal has its TOS saying they can call anything counterfeit and their TOS says they can't be held liable for it. Sorry it's a judges job to say if you can or can't be held liable for your business terms and practices.

You can put that you own the customers soul in a tos or other ridiculous claims, but It will never upheld. This won't hold up in court.

Re: PayPal forces buyer to destroy $2500 pre-WWII antique violin in dispute

#180
post #30

Some guides for buying violins that go back to 2006 which say to ignore the labels on violins. http://reviews.ebay.com/Buying-an-old-violin-on-ebay?ugid=10... http://reviews.ebay.com/What-apos-s-in-a-Name-A-Guide-to-Lab... http://reviews.ebay.com/Violins-on-Ebay?ugid=100000000142981... Paypal TOS Covers counterfeit items: 10.1 b Further, if you lose a [Significantly Not as Described] Claim because we, in our sole dis…

Wow, that is frightening. Especially when you consider that "at paypal's sole discretion" amounts to "whatever an underpaid, remote customer droid has decided based on 5 minutes of effort".
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