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Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

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Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most college courses also don’t teach that.

Most college courses don't but most curriculums have some sort of security class. When we were learning assembly we used gdb to exploit faults in a C program (and we didn't get the source code so we had to read the assembly). There was also one for finding exploits exposed for a website that has a DB in the backend. Nothing prevents bootcamps from having those classes though.

> Nothing prevents bootcamps from having those classes though.

Time.

They don't have time for things like that. If they took the time to teach low level programming, data structures and algorithms, security, operating systems, networking and so on, they'd need to teach students for 3 years instead of 3 months. And then you may as well get a degree.

The sales pitch for bootcamps is that they can teach you enough to get started in a career in CS in 12 weeks. Then you can get a job and learn the rest while working. This breaks down when you don't learn things that you'll need. And it breaks down around areas you'll probably never pick up on the job, like (for me) learning how page fault handlers work in the kernel by implementing my own. Or how you can use gdb to reverse engineer C programs.

There's only so much you can learn in 12 weeks. And there's only so much your job will take the time to teach you.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you design a hiring process that values a coding challenge then of course people who do well at the coding challenge will do well in the process. The problem with coding challenges is that they do not require the same skills that software engineering requires. The value of a hired software engineer is measured over many years, you can’t possibly measure the success of a prospect based on whether or not they get hi…

> Instead, they’re assessing candidates on what is actually relevant to the company. Great question - what is relevant to the company? This is the #1 purpose of technical screening: To assess whether the candidate can do the job you're trying to hire them for. If the job involves programming, one of the things you need to assess is whether the person can program. Telling me your job history, verbally solving hypothet…

> All of these things are good signals, but past experience can be misleading, and github activity is trivially easy to fake.

And coding challenges... have integrity? If someone goes to the effort to fake GitHub activity (whatever that means?) then why would they not also go to the effort to cheat in a coding challenge?

You can learn more from past experience, job history, hypothetical contextual problems and GitHub repositories than you can from a 45 minute fizzbuzz exercise. If you cannot assess a candidate by having a conversation with them then how on earth do you expect to be able to work with them? If you need a fizzbuzz exercise to trust that they actually know what they're talking about (which, again, proves absolutely nothing other than their ability to do fizzbuzz) how can you trust them in a collaborative setting?

The success of a screener cannot be measured by how many people in screens out, otherwise, the perfect screener for Software Engineering would be the ability to jump 20ft in the air from sitting down.

> its shocking the number of people who have somehow worked in the industry for 20+ years yet only seem to be able to paw ineffectually at eclipse when you ask them to write fizzbuzz.

So either there's an epidemic of people who can wax lyrical and provide meaningful insight into software engineering in a professional context but haven't actually worked in the industry... or you're churning through a dry checklist exercise of common interview questions that anyone who does the bare minimum preparation could answer.

The point I make (to technical and non-technical people alike) when I'm involved in hiring is that if you cannot qualify a software engineer in a conversation then you're asking the wrong questions. Most people interviewing software engineers have no idea how to effectively assess someone, and in my experience end up reading off some list of "software engineer interview questions". The reason supposed experts can pass these interviews and then fail at actually programming is that the interviews are terrible, and they're just being asked questions they've heard a dozen times before because someone half-assed the process and found them via a "software engineer interview questions" blog post.

If you need to know that someone can write code and you cannot confidently assess them in conversation, that's fine, not everyone has that ability, but the solution is to have them tackle a small contextual problem as a project (and pay them for the day of work) and not give them some arbitrary challenge that does not represent the real world.

Coding challenge fans make the mistake of believing that there needs to be some step where you have an applicant do a little dance to prove that they can write code, and so a coding challenge is a natural and necessary part of the interview process and that anybody objecting to coding challenges has to provide an alternative that will have an applicant do a little dance to prove that they can write code.

I've attended lots of interviews in my career, on both sides of the table, and I know exactly why coding challenges are used: because the rest of the process is so bad that someone who couldn't write code could easily get through. If you need coding challenges to prevent that, so be it, but it's because your interviews are bad.

The fact that there's an entire cottage industry of leetcode training and people who spend months "grinding leetcode" should be evidence enough that coding challenges test a candidates ability to... do coding challenges.

And, for the record, when I interview software engineers, I send them the questions I am going to ask in advance so they have time to research and prepare because that's what the real world is like... and I remain confident that even then I can still assess them effectively.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#243

I majored in journalism and worked in tech support for a while, but I got into engineering by seeing manual procedures that I could write software to speed up, so I did that. Management saw the value in it (I helped by pitching this as a force multiplier) and gave me an ever-increasing allotment of my schedule to work on that instead of customer support until it became 100%. They did try to route me into QA first, bu…

Oh, I've done that too! I did some work for a hotel and sped up their marketing and IT stuff quite a bit with automation. I didn't end up being paid extra for that, but I enjoyed it. Would you put it on your CV?

I didn't put it on my CV since by the time I was updating my CV I'd already done much more interesting stuff than what I did at that time so it didn't add anything, but if that had been the extent of my experience then I'd 100% put it on my CV. Anything that's relevant to the job the CV is for.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A tiny minority of places I've worked do code review for every commit. Or have careful enough processes that they would catch every mistake made by incompetent engineers. Most companies simply trust their employees most of the time. Hardening a process against programmers you don't trust has a massive cost.

> A tiny minority of places I've worked do code review for every commit. In the past three jobs I have had, over 13 years, all changes were code reviewed before merge. I don't know the industry's general stance on this, but I wanted to describe my experience here which is very different from yours.

Same here.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are knowledge holes a mile wide with bootcamp curriculums though. The programs I’ve seen don’t teach: - Information security - Anything lower level than Python/Ruby - Unix (streams, files, processes and threads, syscalls, etc) - Debugging. (Except incedentally) Not knowing these things can be fine in a feature factory workplace. But having an engineer on your team who has no idea about infosec is an active dang…

I’d argue that if any of those reach production it’s never going to be the junior dev’s fault. Where’s the review process? Stronger point even: it is beneficial to have a person capable of messing up that way so you can check that your quality control is working.

> I’d argue that if any of those reach production it’s never going to be the junior dev’s fault. Where’s the review process?

That's true, but issues getting into production isn't the things that might be problem. Junior devs requiring hours of review time for relatively simple tasks can also cause a lot of problems for an organisation, bringing productivity to a halt in extreme cases.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And most college courses also don’t teach that.

Can you substantiate this? It's incredibly hard to believe that the majority of universities offering a programme in computer science would not have a class on operating systems or information security, or anything more abstract or concrete about those topics.

At least at my school, the CS degree was open ended. You take a handful of required corses (intro to programming, algorithms, operating systems) but aside from that, it was up to you to pick the classes which interested you. If you were interested in security, or databases or mobile app development, you could take those classes, but they weren't required.

The things I learned in college which were actually applicable to a software engineering job was:

* A basic ability to program

* Maybe some low level concepts about operating systems. But this is a big maybe, because my operating systems class was pretty early on and was long forgotten 3 years later when I went to apply for a real job.

I learned nothing about version control, the typical client-server model, html/css/javascript, REST, servers, databases, doing a pull request, teamwork, etc. I think those classes may have been available, but I never took them and graduated just fine.

I am not convinced this 4 year CS degree was any more useful than a bootcamp, which teaches you the actual useful things you need to be a junior dev.

I think the difference between CS and a bootcamp is more of intent and followthrough. People often pick bootcamps because of promises of easy money, versus someone who does a 4 year CS degree is possibly more committed and won't give up as easily. But in terms of their actual preparation, I doubt one is better than the other.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I've done that too! I did some work for a hotel and sped up their marketing and IT stuff quite a bit with automation. I didn't end up being paid extra for that, but I enjoyed it. Would you put it on your CV?

Yes, putting relevant experience on your CV would be a good thing. I’d also suggest changing the tone of the website a little. You say, “Take a moment to browse through my innovative ideas,” and then link to mine sweeper that uses sums instead of numbers? I kind of expected more from the description, and if I were looking as part of a job application I might start to doubt other things you claim. If you’d just said M…

I've changed the tone, thank you. I don't think simple ideas are any less innovative though, for what it's worth!

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#248

Late to the party, but maybe I can help. I've helped in the hiring of many developers. (grain of salt, just my opinion, etc...) * Don't do bootcamps. It's a red flag for me. This can be said for any 100% online college. (again, I'm just being honest). Community colleges are fine. * You having a Github that you've committed stuff to often-ish will most interest me. I don't give a crud if you contribute to open source.…

The counterpoints to all of this:

No brownie points help as you still have to pass the technical interview, 99% of the time. Places with technical interviews have recruiters. Recruiters are not technical and will not actually be gauging you on any of this, they just need to be able to find you. They look for githubs and linkedin profiles.

This person is someone avoiding coding challenges and has just as arbitrary metrics as a replacement.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#249

> Without any programming jobs on my CV, what is a good way to penetrate into the market? freelance work. Sign up on Upwork.com (or similar). Do a bunch of contracts. Put them on your resume. I did freelance work for years before deciding i was sick of constantly hustling for clients. Then I applied for jobs and said "here's all the things I've done" and they were like "cool. interview. yup. you're hired" Also, pro-t…

I have a mental block with this. I don’t know if I’m ready to create what a customer might want. What happens if I can’t deliver? How do you estimate well? Do people on Upwork expect that hiring someone there could be great or could be iffy?

I guess I have a confidence issue with putting myself out there.

Re: Ask HN: How does a hobby programmer get hired?

#250

Late to the party, but maybe I can help. I've helped in the hiring of many developers. (grain of salt, just my opinion, etc...) * Don't do bootcamps. It's a red flag for me. This can be said for any 100% online college. (again, I'm just being honest). Community colleges are fine. * You having a Github that you've committed stuff to often-ish will most interest me. I don't give a crud if you contribute to open source.…

Ah crap, I messed up here, and I'm quite sorry. I was wrong when I said that bootcamps were red flags. When I stated "Don't do bootcamps. It's a red flag for me"... I should have said "Don't have bootcamps be nearly your only source of experience." Like, if a person rolls up with either a super-expensive boot camp, or a side project that they've kept up with for two years... It's no contest. I certainly won't be mad…

> I certainly won't be mad at you taking the bootcamp.

Why would anyone expect you to be mad? Weird.

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